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LazarusLuna

[Debate] Consent

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LazarusLuna    27
LazarusLuna

Warning: This thread will be discussing the nature of consent and will likely touch up on the discussion of sexual assault. If you are sensitive about the subject then you are advised to leave the thread so you will not get upset or triggered in anyway. 

 

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Now the warning is out of the way onto the subject matter:

 

I figured I'd make this subject since I am curious when people consider the line between consent and none consent crossed. I also know the morals and laws change from country to country. For example: In one country it is ok to have sex with someone while they are drunk while in another it is considered rape since they are unable to consent to anything. 

 

In my opinion this has the black and white in a nutshell:

 

 

However it doesn't cover the grey area which I'll hold back on until a few people have replied.

 

So. When is the line crossed for you guys? 

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

By that logic surprising my fiancée with a gift or an affectionate kiss is rape. No, I'm not touching this subject with a ten foot pole or criticizing everything wrong said in this video there simply isn't enough hours in a day and I think by the end of the year I'll be labelled the biggest misogynist on the planet. Sorry, LazarusLuna.

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Neptune    1,175
Neptune

Yeah, I am with Tripp on this one. I don't really wanna jump in this one. I disagree with a number of things that woman says. That is HER perspective of consent, doesn't mean that everyone should adhere to that. According to her, I cannot leap up from my seat right now, cuddle Tripp and give him a great big kiss because that is sexual assault. Yeah, no. It's never as clear cut as that. But that's all I am going to say on this,

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LazarusLuna    27
LazarusLuna

I didn't think that is what she meant. I thought it was more common sense if anything in the video. I am not sure how long you guys have been together but due to your status I think it is enough to know what attention you both do and don't want. In my opinion the video is more starter relationships when you barely know the person and just go along with things that make you uncomfortable. Most notably teenagers who don't know what proper consent is. Teens these days don't seem to know where the line is and more often than not get into trouble or commit assault and/or rape without knowing so. 

 

In my opinion no one should be having any intimate contact with someone they don't fully know until consent is given. Hell I elbowed someone in the stomach before because I didn't know them and they decided to cuddle me from behind without my consent. However when my partner decides to cuddle me from behind I usually have no problem with it since he knows I like cuddles from him from behind. 

 

Now depending on where the person was touched would depend on if it were sexual assault or just assault. Like the above; I would say that both of us committed assault since they laid their hands on me without my permission and I attacked them in defence. 

 

I am sorry if this thread causes issue but it is here for you to give your honest opinion! Now get out the pole and whack the subject matter?

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LazarusLuna    27
LazarusLuna
First, I would like to say how much I appreciate that you to took your time to express your opinion on this subject matter. Second, I would just like to say that you aren't hated for having your opinion. (By me anyway) I enjoyed reading your response and can clearly see you do have a foundation for your opinions and views. It hasn't left me feeling depressed, offended or upset or anything like that. If anything I am glad you gave me a good argument and went into some areas I was going to start talking about, and even though you were off on a tangent a little I feel it was a good thing and not bad. I say this because you have given us more to consider and ideas for other debates that we can have outside this subject. 
 
Even though I did love your writing I will only cover the core subject surrounding our debate at hand. That is not to say that I am totally dismissing what you have said but more that I know I would also derail this thread with a response to you. (Which I don't think either of us would want!) I think what would be best is if there was another thread about feminism today, domestic violence, abuse of rights in society... the list is endless. 
 
I will say I liked the video posted and that as part of my course work last year I did cover something like it. I wrote two papers. One on male rape victims (The discrimination they face in media) and another on feminism and misandry. However I will happily talk about these in another thread. 
 
I will now get onto the main subject matter and respond.  :)
 
"My main (not all) issues with her video are extensive... The following are the bits I am willing to open my argument with are:

From the offset Ms. Green states "Why is it so sexy? Because they ask for consent if it was okay; which shows 1) that they respect me and 2) they got some... Basic sexual communication down-HAWT!" Notice the words I underlined? Look; if Ms. Green's ... Fetish? Or really finds these a turn on then that's her personal preference and her own business; and I am not quite sure why on Earth consent is sexy or "Hawt!" It's a bit like saying "Drinking water is so sexy! Yeah eat dem veggies, dat's hot." Necessity (Such like Consent) shouldn't be sold as sexy, especially during a "Informational/Educational" video involving the Moralities of Consent. Although it is in the Entertainment Category. 

 
"Sex is something that is NEVER owed to someone" not true; actually. For example; I often give Neppy "IOUs" for sexual favours. Be that oral, anal, vaginal, etc, etc... Usually the IOU holder's choice, instead of the IOU Giver. This is something we do because to us; it's a pleasurable and acceptable form of currency that's mutually beneficial. We do it to each other and was actually something she brought to the relationship which I have to say has helped us better understand each other."
 
While I do agree her tone was some what...too casual? I think when discussing a contentious subject like consent it is hard to keep those in the age range of 13-21 (Some times a little older) interested in the subject matter and to take on board what is being said. The manner in which she was approaching is basic psychology when dealing with teenagers and serious subject matters. (Make it entertaining as possible) She makes it seem clear cut and black and white, which I think is a good starting point. It can also make people call into question (as we are doing now) "What if" situations. I don't think she intended for a debate to start but more to give people a starting point so the could then consider other situations. However I do see and understand your objections in her methods and points. As academics it feels like she is talking down to us and through out the video I just started blankly and tried to ignore her annoying approach since I know others below my age would find it fun. (Kind of like watching a kiddy show with the hosts being silly to make the kids laugh and learn.)
 
Given she is american I think she is trying to break the so called "rape-culture" that seems to be on the rise over there lately. (It happens a little here too, but not as bad.) While it mainly seems men, there are a few women who are part of the problem too. One of the big examples of how bad the rape-culture over there is  the "Steubenville rape case" in which an minor was raped and pretty much almost all authority figures who knew of it tried to cover it up. To make matters worse the victim also subjected to "victim-blaming" too, which is surprisingly common everywhere. 
 
The sexual "IOUs" are already consented to and given away with your own conscious will and not forcefully coerced by one another. I don't see either of you using them when the other isn't in the mood for sexy time. If anything I think they sound quite fun and something that should be suggested to spice up relationships. I think Ms Green's logic is more consent can only be give by the person whom the body belongs to and cannot be forced for any reason. For example; I got into some serious trouble and someone helped me get out of it and then demanded I give them a blow job since I "owed them" for their assistance. In a sense I guess it is forced prostitution that she is trying to point at without saying it. (Then again I could just be reading between the lines too much)
 
I will say once again that the difference between you and beginners/younger people is that you and Neps are clearly comfortable and even say yourself that your method has made you understand each other's sexual needs better. As far as I can tell your relationship is consensual and I highly doubt you do the whole. "If you loved me you'd come here and blow me right now." Something that pretty much happens... perhaps not so crudely put but something to that wording likely happens. 
 
"This is what no sounds like...I guess if you want me to" Is not consent. Actually... Technically it is :D She also says that consent is a YES! Enthusas- No. It's not. Especially when the nervousness takes hold and even British Stiff-Upper Lips takes effect. For example "Wanna fuck me?" "Eh. I'm up for that, I guess." or "Eh, sure why not?". 

"Just because someone doesn't say no; doesn't mean they're saying yes." Well no shit. Unfortunately not saying no doesn't mean no either; in the same way that not saying "NCC-1701-D" isn't saying "Starship" or "Enterprise!"

This is where her major point throughout the video comes in. Communication is critical, especially when people are nervous. It makes a massive difference and makes the person feel comfortable enough to enjoy themselves. Sex is meant to be for fun and not something that people dread doing. I guess one way of putting it is like this:

What happens at parties? The host check in on people to make sure everyone is enjoying themselves and if anything has gone wrong. The host can't know that every person in the room is happy simply by asking the people who just look happy and are getting drunk off their ass. They also need to ask those who are in the corner by themselves looking like they aren't having fun or like they don't want to be there. 
 
I know it is an odd way of putting it but when you get down to basics; you body is pretty much having a party on all levels. Your body may be loving it but mentally you aren't really into it and you don't want to say anything because you are worried that your partner will react negatively if you do speak up. And that right there is a big problem in itself: Fear of rejection
 

"Consent cannot happen even with a verbal yes... [sip] ...Even when they are drunk." And her whole argument. It implies that there is someone who isn't drunk when you're having sex with someone who... Inebriated. So what happens if BOTH are inebriated?! Who's commiting the sexual assault? What happens if say a Man is really drunk and rapes a woman? (This has the be the same answer as what happens if a woman is really drunk and rapes a man. I am for TRUE gender equality; and not what Masculinists/Feminists/"Other"inists or whatever want Gender Equality to be like). Again what if there was consent BEFORE the drinking. A highly generalised statement that creates and endorses (in my opinion) the nanny state culture that I am getting sick and tired (as a human being) of living in."

 

While her point is all good and all on this, once again it does raise the point of "What if" since a lot of people are irresponsible when it comes to drunk sex. Or as I like to call it "Regret sex." Unfortunately I think this is one of those many grey areas that we come across when discussing consent. But I do believe it is the responsibility of the not so intoxicated person to simply take the person home and have them sleep it off instead of just going ahead. However if consent was given before I don't think there should be a problem unless the person says no. While I agree that she could be seen as just adding to the nanny state (which is annoying) I think in this instance it is needed due to the problems we are facing when it comes to consent, rape-culture and victim-blaming. While I don't think the video is perfect I do think it is a very good starting point to get a conversation going. (Which it has.)
 
"I agree with her on her Underaged sex laws... Right up until she said "In general when two people are in two very different parts of their life raises red flags" this is another overally generalised statement that is completely closeminded and stupid. If person A is 18 (Legal in this country for consent) is fucking a 87 year old; then I'm sorry but who's business is it of anyones to interfere with that?
 
On her last point about the position of power. She states obvious and very good ones. However; what if your lover happens to be your Doctor or priest as well? What if they took the position after the fact? Also "Youtube Fans"... I couldn't facepalm hard enough. It's called Groupies and has been a tradition in certain parts of media for a very long time. 
 
Text that's cleverly hidden "Sex with (someone who has) disabilities?!" is a disgusting statement. I am considered to be someone who has "Disabilities." does that mean I lose the right to give my consent? I agree; that people who are are mentally the ages 0 - 16 years old but physically old enough is a gray area to me; this proves my point that highly generalised statements like this are irresponsible if not out-right dangerous."

 

I think another problem with this video is that it is too vague and open. (I would also like to thank you for pointing out the text. I didn't notice that before!) I think a better way of putting it would have been at different sexual maturity levels. Someone at 18 wouldn't know everything about sex yet (if they did I would be shocked) where as the person who was 87 would most likely know everything and could be in a position to take advantage if they wanted. (Then again it could be argued that anyone could...) But I do agree that it was closed minded to say it was a big no since it was her opinion and not a fact. I too agree that that age is yuck to me but it is up to them and if anything I would be all:
 
1430.gif
 
Then ask why and pretty much sate my curiosity into if the relationship was genuine without being too offensive or insensitive. (I'm nosey like that!)
 
While I think general statements are good I think depending on the situation and subject it can be dangerous. In this case I think it may breed an ageist culture and create a bigger stigma for age gap relationships than there already is. 
 

"One of my main issues is:

Fetishes are completely disregarded; some people love being forced, granted this really should be communicated first and shouldn't be assumed outright, because not everyone and indeed the majority do not.
 
For example say Person A and Person B are in a relationship. Person A loves being forced, loves being raped by their partner and actually gets off on it. Person B may also love being grabbed (sexually grabbed) and these two can go on in a evidently deviant sexual relationship. Although granted. You've technically consented even when you say "I want you to rape me" that in itself is like an oxymoron - Consented Rape. 
 
This doesn't mean I support rape nor that I think that rape isn't a problem. Quite the opposite really; rape is a problem (With all genders)."
Ironically there is still consent behind it and technically it is roleplay.(Which would have a safe word so they know when to stop) Also we don't learn these kinks until later, when our minds are more open and when we are more sexually mature. When you think about it, do you want your kids at 13-16 knowing about kinky stuff? Bearing in mind that they are struggling with their sexual identity, school work, social life and peer pressure. That is a lot to take on. Already in schools there are male children at 11 bragging about having sex with girls and being homophobic because they think it is cool and funny. Girls are bragging about snogging a popular bad boy behind the shed and dressing up to attract boys because media has lead them to believe you are supposed to do that. All the while calling girls who don't do it lesbians and frigid bitches. 
 
I know it doesn't mean you support rape and I pretty much have the same stance. Rape is a serious problem with all genders. 
 
"Six years this August, and no. Consent has simply never been an issue for either of us, not just with each other but with everyone (that we've collectively) ever been in a relationship with. Simply put... We have our own system which mashed and gelled well with each other before we even met each other. We openly and completely talk to each other, about stuff we want, like, and need (Not just sex). Of course if either of us says "Nah. I'm not in the mood for it." or "No... Not today." we know, we respect. No problems."

Congratulations in advance then. That is also great that you have that. Unfortunately not a lot of relationships do have that and I think that is why (in part) that the video is a good starting point. While it doesn't teach people who to explore who they are sexually it does give a good point to start from when it comes to relationships. A lot lack communication and in my opinion it is something that should be taught. No one should be afraid of saying something like "Sorry but I don't really like being fingered, could you lick me out instead please?" or "Sorry I don't really like blow jobs... can you massage my cock with your tits instead?" (The combinations are endless) Instead in early relationships the person will just go with whatever they think the other person likes and just keep doing it. Like all conscious behaviour we can't correct it unless we are told we are doing something wrong in the first place.

 
"Again THANK YOU PORN! (I think Neppy agrees; Sex Education was much more insightful from a Story about sex and a good hard porno, or in our case. Hentai!)"

Like you I found sex ed to be rubbish and from what I hear it still is. I also learned bits and pieces from porn but even still it didn't prepare me. Even after I did have sex I still didn't know what I did and didn't like until I started roleplaying. I mean it has taken me within the last three years to discover that I am not Bisexual and that I am actually Pan-sexual and a switch with sadistic tenancies. Now they didn't teach that stuff in school!

 

"With respect; I disagree completely. Teenagers (Certainly my generation) onwards are becoming (thankfully) more aware about consent. Yes; when I was at School - Sex Education was not helpful at all, unfortunately this is perhaps the one thing I can say positively (backhandedly positive) about the state of the Education System. It's equal...ly flawed. Sex Education for me did not prepare me for the following things that I've encounted in REAL life personally:

What to do and who to speak to when a Female is has committed for Domestic Abuse or Rape.
Anal Sex (Consensual With a Partner or Me)
Anal Sex being done on you without consent
Oral Sex Consensual or otherwise.
Fetishes
Gay and Transgender relationships, people and awareness
Bi-Sexuality
Pan-sexuality
Any Sexuality other than Hetro. 
Gender Neutral Consent (Read on)
and many many more.
The Internet (At least for me) did help tremendously. Although Ms. Green in my opinion isn't helping matters. I certainly wouldn't want her (in my full and blunt opinion) propagandaous bullshit being taught as the base of the knowledge of consent to my kids. To be honest I think sexual education at least in my case is better being taught to children from parents rather than the state or person who clearly has no idea of the scope of what they're talking about. I was taught about Sex Education by someone who probably never even had sex (because most of her information was flat out incorrect). I lost all respect for the education system when Mrs. Moore (my Sex-Ed teacher at Primary School) said and I quote "Only men are capable of raping. Only women can be the victims of rape." Therefore no one in my class was taught Gender Neutral Consent. I certainly don't think that a normal kid is supposed to get the sexual education the way I did either (Through Hentai or as I call it Porn, it is pornography there for a highly generalised term would be Porn). But the Internet has much safer - more encompassing knowledge on the subject. Something I think the Porn Filter will censor. Which is why I would have my own system in place (as is a Parent's responsibility. Not the State's responsibility) I certainly don't want them to get the sex education in school I got either... Never in a trillion years."
 
I would like to respectfully disagree with you on the point of people becoming more aware of consent. As far as I have seen and experienced children, teens and even some adults don't know/understand consent properly. For example; Some adults think it is ok to have sex with someone if they are inebriated or "out of it." When it isn't. Having sex with someone when they are not in the state of mind to consent, regardless of gender, is rape. But if you happen to be unfortunate enough to be in ear shot of people who aren't so... academically minded? (To put it politely without sounding like a snob) You may have the misfortune (as I have) of hearing someone bragging about how they (to quote) "Totally banged that hot chick who was so out of it last night!" - right there they just outright confessed that they raped a female while she was intoxicated. However this seems to be a common thing and no one bats an eyelid about it, therefore, we still live in a society where no one knows consent properly. Everyone sees it as just black and white and even now we are still learning what is acceptable. For example; 40 years ago it was ok for a man to rape his wife and it was never seen as a taboo, but more of a thing that "just happened" and was somewhat accepted. (Like racism) Now there are laws that protect women from being raped in marriage and people even go to jail for it.  
 
I think one of the things we need to be bearing in mind that Ms Green is American there is a massive issue with consent over there and if you have seen the amount of coverage of rape or sexual assault involving minors you may be shocked. 
 
Like you my sex education was rubbish (as I stated above) and recently I have learned it hasn't changed one bit and hasn't really helped anything at all. Hell, when my friend's younger brother was staying over (he is 10) he told us that week a teacher had "The sex talk" with them. (He was snickering slightly.) He said the teacher said sex was like a jigsaw puzzle. Some pieces fitted together and others didn't. As he went on to explain more in depth what she meant and all that jazz (understandability snickering a little) I just:
 
1383.gif
 
I seriously had half a mind to write to school as I felt the sex talk was somewhat bias and, dare I say, a little anti-gay. 
 
While the media seems to show that our kids are ok I can assure you they aren't. Parents are too lazy to teach their children and think it is the state's responsibility not theirs. (Which is also where the problem lies) Did you know that 1 in 5 children go to school in nappies when they start school? And that 1 in 10 children have speech problems? All because parents rely on the state's broken system too much and are just too lazy to take on the teacher role. We live in a society where we have been brainwashed to think that our government knows best and that it isn't our role to do some things. I am glad I am not the only one who has a back up plan when it comes to sex education. 
 
 
"Despite the fact that legally and morally (to me) I have neither sexually assaulted nor raped anyone on purpose, intentionally, etc.. She gives me the impression that you have to consent for every second your having sex. Well that certainly changes the definition of "Yes! OH YES!" to "I consent! I CONSENT!" Oh yeah because thats sexy. </sarcasm>"
 
As we covered earlier; nervousness can change a situation from consensual to unconsensual. I think the point is to be more aware of each other's body language so there is no accidental raping or assault going on. Some couples just have the sex and don't pay attention to each other's basic need to make the experience wonderful instead of just taking it. So it is nice to check in once in a while and even make it fun. See the person is enjoying the oral or fondling a lot and just check in by stopping and saying "If you want me to stop any time I will." In my opinion that helps encourage communication on what the person does want. Then again I could be seen bias and as being horrible as it is a slight kink of mine to control another person's pleasure. I just love it when I deny at random times during the sexual act to get the person to tell me what they do or don't want. For me it is a very fun way of keeping the consent window open too. However no one teaches the fun ways to keep checking in without it seeming like a chore or pretty much any kink that can help at all. 
 
Even though her video is somewhat bias in favour of  the female prospective I think most of it is just common sense that the younger generation just don't get taught properly and is something we only learn as we become more aware of the feelings of others and do research. 
 
I do also agree with one major point with you. Parents have pretty much become too reliant on the state to educate their kids. 

"I can understand why you acted in self defense but when I was at college I was publicly groped and molested by a female who was being encouraged to keep going. I growled at her (Literally, like a Dog... OR a Wolf!) and said something to the effect of "You are violating my personal fucking space. Take your hand off of me or I will force it off." Did I care that she was a female? No. I would have said it to anyone who did that to me (And have done!). 

 
That afternoon the Police visited me at my parents house and almost arrested me because someone heard me threatening a female. I told them that 1 I gave her a choice. and 2) She complied and stopped molesting me. Then I put it to the Police (As one of the officers was a female) "If I reached forward. Right now. Grabbed your breasts in my hands, and molested you. You'd arrest me for Sexual Assault, Yes or No. She violated my personal space. She molested me. If I was a female, and she was a male. You and I both know we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. I didn't threaten her, I warned her that she was violating me and I was offended. I have the right to state this and I have the right to walk about. UNMOLESTED. As does every human being on this planet." 
 

Ever since. Not heard a peep from either the offender, nor the Police about the incident. The fact it went that far proves to me that if you as a male does something it's WORSE than if a female does it. Sorry to bring Gender into this again but this is the problem with consent... "
 
That is terrible. If I were there I would have stood up to her for you and even complained to the college about her assaulting you. I am glad you managed to get your side heard and that justice took your side. All too often males are the victim and females will turn it around so it goes in their favour. I also agree that when it comes to assault most laws assume that the male is the perpetrator and the victim female, so you do have a right to bring gender into it since that is a big issue. 
 
-
 
I hope I covered most core parts that were about consent! >.<
 
Now with the issue of the video out of the way; what do you consider grey areas when it comes to consent? And what is your opinion on the "Slut Walk" movement? 
 
=
 
Editing: Why is the coding for quoting so awkward?!
Editing 2: Going to put your quotes in a different colour since I have tried a number of times now and coding is still being annoying for me!
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Manni    403
Manni

I can't really add much to the topic about consent that HASN'T already been said. From what I can tell, Tripp and the OP have similar stances on this issue though I do think there is difference only when certain things are framed certain ways or when personal experience becomes relevant. I do have to take issue with Tripp with his usage of Political Correctness, as he is using it as though it is actually a useful word and not a political dog whistle. Sorry Tripp, but you have been fooled to think that this is a neutral word that actually means something. 

 

The fact is...political correctness is a conservative buzz-word/dog whistle to shut up debate or condemn something they themselves don't think for no other reason because they don't. I've seen this word used continuously ONLY by conservatives, to promote conservatism and its flavour of the month policies and to shut down debate by accusing others of a crime that has no name. The term has been used in many debates and in NO INSTANCE has ANYONE EVER come up with a consistent definition of it. Sure, they wave their hands a lot and shout out various epithets but nothing of substance. It is a euphemism that tries to base other euphemisms for being euphemisms! It's ludicrous. 

Edited by Manni
Statement retracted

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LazarusLuna    27
LazarusLuna

At the end of the day most views are similar but do offer different prospectives which is where philosophy and sociology would come in to try and get us to consider different approaches to the same subjects. I also do agree that experiences do play a role in all arguments, which is why the good ones are so full of passion. Even if you feel you don't have much to add on I would still like to hear an opinion as it would be put in a different view. For example; both me and Tripp see different things from one video. So feel free to add something, even if it is small.

 

With the issue of "nanny state" and "political correctness" I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Like all terminologies it has different meaning and usage. While in your country it is used by conservatives to devalue an opinion and shut down arguments over here and in the US it is used by liberals and progressives to describe the growing power the state has over it's people when it comes to things that were once unspoken rules, down to common sense and are generally coddling the populous. For example;

 

> Safety laws that mean children can't play games like British bulldog in the playground any more. 

> Safety laws that mean my former tutor would have to fill in many forms and get insurance just for a class of 15 adults to go on a trip to our local court to watch proper proceedings.

> Laws that make it more difficult to control unruly children during class. 

> Laws that mean a woman can't breast feed her baby in public when her child is hungry. 

 

In my opinion these laws are stupid and are examples of the state exceeding it's reach into our society when there is no need for it. The state being over protective and creating laws and acts because someone got a little bit upset or hurt is where the term "Nanny state" comes from. Stereotypically grandmothers are caring, perhaps over baringly so. They can also be quite controlling compared to a child's parents. Therefore "Nanny state" is more of a term that people use when disapprove of the direction that society is going in terms of too much control over small things. 

 

When it comes to political correctness that is more you can't say anything because of your status. For example; Tripp would be accused of being sexist and bigot for his opinion on that video and for his post in general. This is because Tripp is male therefore cannot comment on sexual or female issues because he is "infringing" on the female right to express ourselves. (Or something under those bullshit lines.) Political correctness is also a white person not being allowed to talk about immigration because it would be "racist."

 

So as you see it is not to shut things down but more of a commentary on what is viewed as bullshit policies and laws.

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

Thank you for your response LazaursLuna, it was most definitely as insightful to me as I hoped, thank you. I think it's perhaps fair to say we agree on a lot of the core issues but there's stuff "In between the line stuff" that we do not agree on. I believe the problem with consent is not just limited to the Sexual side of consent, things are always happening that we don't consent to, which is what my whole argument actually lead up to and as such I believe we need to be tackling these underlying issues with consent itself before moving into Sexual Consent which seems to be sole focus of this debate.

 

As Manni would say "Buzz-Word" I think Rape Culture is a buzz-word. It's not an accurate one either, I'd prefer the term "The lack of awareness and understanding in different forms of rape and non-consensual sex" but yes, I understand "Rape-Culture" has a better ring to it. xP 

 

That's not to say I believe or disbelieve in it. Rape Culture literally; no - I don't believe so I don't believe we are living in a rape culture. Might seem that way; but it's not. It's not widely accepted and people DO go to prison (and quite rightly so) for it. 

 

But in the meaning I put down then yes, no doubt someone has a definition somewhere that says it better than my definition; there is absolutely a problem and it does need to be addressed, and it cannot be addressed by one person, one group, one gender or one race. It has to be addressed by one very diverse group of species called Human Beings. It cannot be addressed (In my opinion) by picking and choosing which sections are broken and tweaking them, not in this case... I think the whole damn consent issue from sex to our personal human rights are under threat. 

 

 

I can't really add much to the topic about consent that HASN'T already been said. From what I can tell, Tripp and the OP have similar stances on this issue though I do think there is difference only when certain things are framed certain ways or when personal experience becomes relevant. I do have to take issue with Tripp with his usage of Political Correctness, as he is using it as though it is actually a useful word and not a political dog whistle. Sorry Tripp, but you have been fooled to think that this is a neutral word that actually means something. 

 

The fact is...political correctness is a conservative buzz-word/dog whistle to shut up debate or condemn something they themselves don't think for no other reason because they don't. I've seen this word used continuously ONLY by conservatives, to promote conservatism and its flavour of the month policies and to shut down debate by accusing others of a crime that has no name. The term has been used in many debates and in NO INSTANCE has ANYONE EVER come up with a consistent definition of it. Sure, they wave their hands a lot and shout out various epithets but nothing of substance. It is a euphemism that tries to base other euphemisms for being euphemisms! It's ludicrous. 

 

I certainly didn't intend that. When I say "Political Correctness" what I actually mean is the act of "Seemingly legal but fucking immoral stripping of our basic human right to free speech and free expression. To suit the needs of a Nanny State, Totalitarian or even Big Brother Government." which I firmly believe we're already a nanny state, and the Goverenement is proven already to be "Big Brother" and as for Totalitarianism - We're heading there fast. But PC seems to be a much quicker way of saying it and flows better. I am not a conservative and now you've seen someone who isn't conservative use the word with (By the looks of it) a very different meaning.

 

I will consider this next time however. No offence intended. 

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

Apologies for double posting but I found this link and if "Rape Culture" did exist; then we must look at this too:
http://theweek.com/article/index/273258/the-rape-culture-that-everyone-ignores
 
As I said I wasn't trying to derail the debate; I think Rape is very serious, and I'm sure we all do. But the problem is the Social Justice Cult (Before shouting at me please understand what I'm using to come to the conclusion* that they're a cult.) Seem to think that rape can mean just about anything, which I think is out-right wrong. As I said to a friend of mine recently there is a lot of weight in the reputation of a person to most men, and being branded as a "RAPIST" is something that's very serious and can destroy and up turn lives. Now I have a serious problem when this is applied to increasingly trivial bullshit, especially where there was indeed consent. If there wasn't consent then yes; that is rape. Some people want to include Sexual Assault as Rape; I'm sorry but it's not. It's sexual assault. Sure you can be sexually assaulted and raped, but sexual assault isn't itself rape. Then the more extremes such as "If I found out he had been cheating on me, despite my consent this is rape" No it's not rape. It never was rape. Then the down right "I changed my mind later" argument comes up. I don't need to tell you that, that is not rape either. Now I am not saying that these are "Trivial" and they don't matter; what I am saying is it's not rape; and rape should be extremely fucking serious because it is extremely fucking serious, and it definately shouldn't be open to interpretation. Like "Stare Rape" - Get real.
 
It's a touchy subject and I see that. Obviously I've gone away and learnt more about this... The events of this year have been eye opening to me.
 
There are problems in our society. We seem to be allowing cultists to have voices in the main stream media; Ms. Green included and this is a big problem and oh yes, turns out my gut instinct was correct - is indeed a feminist. To say I'm not surprised, is as true as "I absolutely couldn't give a fuck" and I believe she's firmly entrenched with the Social Justice Cult. They're spouting absolute bullshit from completely made up to outright lied about statements to using intellectual dishonesty in statistics. Especially in rape and equal pay statistics (Lets look at the Porn Industry too, shall we?). I don't deny that in some parts of the world, Women's Rights (Human Rights) are being completely ignored. However in our own side of the world Civil Rights and Human Rights across the board are being violated by own Government. I think we have more serious and pressing issues than trying to get the "Right to Be Comfortable".
 
Rape is a serious thing. It's a black and white word to represent something black and white. It's serious, and a very powerful word. It is a word that is being used incorrectly; a lot and I am completely fed up of it. I am rather displeased to see that these "Victims" would rather share their stories with News sites and Social Media, or Blogs rather than actually going to Police about it. To me; doing this - not going to the police about it or taking it up in court but tell the media about it, I dunno. To me this is an attack on a man's reputation not getting justice. I should point out that if the man did rape then he deserves to have that mark on his reputation, there's no excuse to rape someone.
 
Anyway... I assume I pretty much killed this argument dead in the water, or people seriously think I will ban them for having a dissenting option. I'm not a Social Justice Warrior Cultist; it is a debate forum. Please feel free to chirp in even if it's against what I'm saying. I frankly, welcome it.

Very strong words on the subject from me tonight, and very strong opinions. For a change. I'm very serious about Equality for everyone regardless of race, sex, sexuality, ethnic background, planet and even star system. That's how openly Equal I am.

If you are offended, please direct all complaints: Here. Because I'm all out of fucks to give.

* I am not an expert in Cults. But I certainly think Cult Experts should be looking into this. I am saying this is what I think in my conclusion of my research, this isn't an official EcchiDreams stance. Also this video was used. [subject is about Gamergate, but it's a conversation SJC's Geordie Trait (Sp?)]

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Slice    0
Slice

so you deny rape culture and you support gamergate? I think this speaks a lot about your character. I tried so hard to not post in this topic, but seriously. Some of you (but not all, thankfully) are fucking useless. I'm sorry, but if you defend the kind of douchery you're wrong. If you deny rape culture exists, you need to check your fucking privilege. I think everyone registered to this place needs to call you the fuck out on all of this. I bet you hate women because you cant get laid.

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

Well, oh dear. We're jumping right off the deep end aren't we? Someone needs a huge [CITATION NEEDED] next to their username.

so you deny rape culture and you support gamergate? I think this speaks a lot about your character. I tried so hard to not post in this topic, but seriously. Some of you (but not all, thankfully) are fucking useless. I'm sorry, but if you defend the kind of douchery you're wrong. If you deny rape culture exists, you need to check your fucking privilege. I think everyone registered to this place needs to call you the fuck out on all of this. I bet you hate women because you cant get laid. 

I don't deny rape culture; I did, but I kind of recanted in saying: 

Apologies for double posting but I found this link and if "Rape Culture" did exist; then we must look at this too:
http://theweek.com/article/index/273258/the-rape-culture-that-everyone-ignores

Also - I don't think I've said anywhere on this site that I support GamerGate. I support neither side through Twitter, Gamergate is a Hashtag Consumer Revolt, of which I have no part in... But I wholeheartedly support Ethics in ALL kinds of "Factual" Journalism, not just Gaming Journalism.

Sorry but can you actually argue without turning into personal insults, like citing sources for a start, also as for the not getting laid part... LOL. Can we get back on topic though... Please can you show me stuff that supports "Rape Culture" as you define it, with some graphs that show an increase in rape? Please bear in mind that Rape; at least today is defined as:

What Rape isn't:

  • None of that "He touched my leg" = "Rape!" bullshit. That's not rape.
  • None of that "He groped my tit" = "RAPE!" bullshit either. That's Sexual Assault/Molestation... Not Rape.
  • "X Flashed me" isn't rape.
  • Staring at someone isn't rape.
  • Saying "Good morning" to someone isn't rape.
  • Saying "How are you?" to someone isn't rape.
  • Saying "I hope you have a nice day" isn't rape.
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Whoreo    185
Whoreo

good god.

I can't really add much to the topic about consent that HASN'T already been said. From what I can tell, Tripp and the OP have similar stances on this issue though I do think there is difference only when certain things are framed certain ways or when personal experience becomes relevant. I do have to take issue with Tripp with his usage of Political Correctness, as he is using it as though it is actually a useful word and not a political dog whistle. Sorry Tripp, but you have been fooled to think that this is a neutral word that actually means something.

The fact is...political correctness is a conservative buzz-word/dog whistle to shut up debate or condemn something they themselves don't think for no other reason because they don't. I've seen this word used continuously ONLY by conservatives, to promote conservatism and its flavour of the month policies and to shut down debate by accusing others of a crime that has no name. The term has been used in many debates and in NO INSTANCE has ANYONE EVER come up with a consistent definition of it. Sure, they wave their hands a lot and shout out various epithets but nothing of substance. It is a euphemism that tries to base other euphemisms for being euphemisms! It's ludicrous. 

Citation really fucking needed

That is not the context of which he used it in and infact I can't actually find where he used it (So... Strawman there)

Definition:

the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

I think what the definition is saying here is that its a way that we speak in so we don't offend whining pussies, and I think I actually have a fucking point. but I see Wolfie's pretty much kicked this debate in the arse as well. god damn. Rotherham and the children affect by the Asian grooming gangs will beg to differ to your bullshit on Political Correctness, Manni. that was allowed to continue because of Political Correctness. your argument was atrociously fallacious. I am far from conservative, and I use PC all the time to explain things exactly as that.

I certainly didn't intend that. When I say "Political Correctness" what I actually mean is the act of "

Seemingly legal but fucking immoral stripping of our basic human right to free speech and free expression. To suit the needs of a Nanny State, Totalitarian or even Big Brother Government

." which I firmly believe we're already a nanny state, and the Goverenement is proven already to be "Big Brother" and as for Totalitarianism - We're heading there fast. But PC seems to be a much quicker way of saying it and flows better. I am not a conservative and now you've seen someone who isn't conservative use the word with (By the looks of it) a very different meaning.

What you're referring to is the forever encroachment of our free speech, something that has allowed the abuse of children to go for so long by Asian grooming gangs, not just in Rotherham but in a lot of places across the north of the UK, because "Police were scared to be accused of being racist".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2734694/It-hard-appalling-nature-abuse-child-victims-suffered-1-400-children-sexually-exploited-just-one-town-16-year-period-report-reveals.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9253250/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Police-accused-of-failing-to-investigate-paedophile-gang-for-fear-of-appearing-racist.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28967427

http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham.pdf

Yeah...............I'd say the UK had a problem with political correctness. no amount of "no it doesn't" won't make it true.

this had nothing to do with the topic but I merely called something out that I saw when re-reading it. I don't think Wolfie articulated himself as well as he did recently, but I found his points to be more reasonable that OP's and I found OP's more reasonable than that fucking hipster bitch smiling at me at the top of the post. I can't believe I watched that video without throwing up.

Edited by Whoreo
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SMFoxy    555
SMFoxy
While I do agree her tone was some what...too casual? I think when discussing a contentious subject like consent it is hard to keep those in the age range of 13-21 (Some times a little older) interested in the subject matter and to take on board what is being said. The manner in which she was approaching is basic psychology when dealing with teenagers and serious subject matters. (Make it entertaining as possible) She makes it seem clear cut and black and white, which I think is a good starting point. It can also make people call into question (as we are doing now) "What if" situations. I don't think she intended for a debate to start but more to give people a starting point so the could then consider other situations. However I do see and understand your objections in her methods and points. As academics it feels like she is talking down to us and through out the video I just started blankly and tried to ignore her annoying approach since I know others below my age would find it fun. (Kind of like watching a kiddy show with the hosts being silly to make the kids laugh and learn.)

I have quoted the section I'm going to focus on, and bolded the specific points I'm going to address.

I agree... that children and teens sometimes need encouragement to listen.

Recently there was a case of a (non-gaming) feminist who used game characters to get children excited about listening to her (then got flustered when they asked whether she was PS or XBox, eventually opting for "I'm not going to tell you, you'll judge me."). Not that it's entirely relevant, just agreeing with the point. Though if you are going to try and engage the kids, for fucking out loud use something you know something about...

Anyway, onto the main point I'm driving towards. By all means engage kids. But don't teach them warped philosophies while they're too young to know any different/better. Sure, "rape is wrong" is pretty objective, but it's not just "teach boys not to rape", it's just as much "teach girls the definition of rape". It's two sides of the same coin at the end of the day. If you want to teach them the facts (or even the so-called 'facts'), teach them all the facts, and better yet all the true/accurate facts. That and it's never as simple as black and white, as has been stated in this thread.

TL;DR - Don't engage them on their level, get their attention, then feed them bullshit.

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

The problem with Feminists in regards to teaching Children; is that they're so eager to brainwash Children, not just merely teach them. I still haven't had a satisfactory answer as to why indoctrinating children like this is acceptable if Feminism, from any so called Feminist. No other group would have gotten away with it. 

Citation:

They ask: “What’s more offensive? A little girl saying f*ck or the sexist way society treats girls and women”
I'd say indoctrinating children, frankly. This is slipping from the point however, and it's becoming more and more likely I will be doing a debate thread on Feminism itself. Also Feminism isn't a Good Cause. As fucking evidenced by the above citation.

So I would not let a Feminist anywhere near my children, and I think "Rape" is something that the Parents need to teach them, hell, I think Sexual Education is something that the parent should be teaching them (especially after my experiences in School with Sex Education). Considering the other problems I have with education system, and the way male students are marked down for being Male. (Source 1 | Source 2 | Source 3 (Maybe a Paywall)). I think all my children (If I ever have any) will be home schooled.

So yeah... I wouldn't let these harpies teach my kids. Not in a month of fucking Sundays.

I have ALSO noticed a serious problem with this topic:

The update seems to have screwed with the content, and context. Some posts have been removed, and stuffed into Quotes and it's generally been messed around with by the updater. I'm not sure why, but I'm very tempted to re-structure the topic to fix it. I've also noticed quotes are missing, and the original formatting in some areas has been completely destroyed. 

In Regards to Political Correctness:

Also @Whoreo I did use the term Politically Correct; although since I apologised to Manni for using it I have learnt that I was using it in the correct way, regardless to his views. I know people dismissing "Political Correctness" or as I like to call it "Pussyfooting Censorship" is a very raw and emotional subject to those that live in the UK surrounding the Rotherham incident. Please make more of an effort to keep this emotion in check, I will let @Manni respond to your post, however. To add to it; the first time I questioned it was in School. 

One year it was fine to call "Brain Storms" - Brain Storms, but the next year it was deemed "Politically Incorrect" and we all had to call them "Spider Diagrams" because it was Offensive to people who suffer from Epilepsy. This is one example of hundreds. I say offence is taken. Not given.

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Whoreo    185
Whoreo

fine, but my point still stands. I don't think you should have apologised for it, and I certainly don't think Manni should have flipped the fuck out on it. at the end of the day whatever he wants to call it.........it's real, it's measurable and it's been in official reports. so lets cut the bullshit because I see it as shutting down someone's argument when they're making a good and valid point just because "The fact is...political correctness is a conservative buzz-word/dog whistle to shut up debate or condemn something they themselves don't think for no other reason because they don't." which in my view was exactly what he was doing... so being politically correct about being politically correct, which is hypocritical. I don't care if it means something different in Australia, that place is fucking backwards as it is. not that England, Canada, or even America are any better.

yeah because the irony there is so hidden. </s> under section 22, paragraph 3 of the EcchiDreams Terms of Service:

Content Posted in Debate Forums
Debate Forums must not be reduced to a state of personal insults. Information presented as facts must be cited from a source that verifies what you’re stating. 

I demand citations for this claim, or a retraction if none can be found.

Edited by Whoreo
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Jordii~kins    15
Jordii~kins

 I demand citations for this claim, or a retraction if none can be found.

i want to see this citation as well to see any kind of validation with this point.

personally, i think consent is a lot more complicated than Laci Green thinks. i am not going to ask, or give, consent for every moment of sex. what a turn off. as long as all parties involved know what they want, then there is no problems. and if you don't want to do something specific (like getting a dildo rammed up your arse) then make it clear. if you don't consent to something, and never make that clear to your partner/partners, then that's all on you. you have to say if you don't want something. you cant expect those you're having sex with to know everything you like.

Edited by Jordii~kins
formatting dun fcked up
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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

fine, but my point still stands. I don't think you should have apologised for it, and I certainly don't think Manni should have flipped the fuck out on it. at the end of the day whatever he wants to call it.........it's real, it's measurable and it's been in official reports. so lets cut the bullshit because I see it as shutting down someone's argument when they're making a good and valid point just because "The fact is...political correctness is a conservative buzz-word/dog whistle to shut up debate or condemn something they themselves don't think for no other reason because they don't." which in my view was exactly what he was doing... so being politically correct about being politically correct, which is hypocritical. I don't care if it means something different in Australia, that place is fucking backwards as it is. not that England, Canada, or even America are any better.

yeah because the irony there is so hidden. </s> under section 22, paragraph 3 of the EcchiDreams Terms of Service:

I demand citations for this claim, or a retraction if none can be found.

Whilst I find your argument reasonable, I find the way you conducted it was unreasonable. 

First of all that rule was made after the post. Whist it would be nice to see why Manni is under the impression and it'd help us learn more about this perspective; I don't think it's right to go on a full frontal tirade. I think calling entire countries "backwards" is perhaps crossing the line; do you have citations and sources to back up that assertion? Fortunately asking and calling for citations works both ways. Cool it down a smidgen, please. There's no sense in attacking someone like that, no matter which side they're on. 

If Manni wants to give a source for it, he's welcome to but not obligated to as the post was made before the ToS rule was put in. Sorry but that's the way it is. I will ask for you to cite why you think these countries are backwards, or I can't take validity in that claim. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid. 

personally, i think consent is a lot more complicated than Laci Green thinks. i am not going to ask, or give, consent for every moment of sex. what a turn off. as long as all parties involved know what they want, then there is no problems. and if you don't want to do something specific (like getting a dildo rammed up your arse) then make it clear. if you don't consent to something, and never make that clear to your partner/partners, then that's all on you. you have to say if you don't want something. you cant expect those you're having sex with to know everything you like.

Indeed it is far more complicated unfortunately. There's a lot of factors she doesn't count in, and views which, I find, are highly subjective. Her loop hole could be that the video isn't posted as an Educational Video. 

entertainment.thumb.jpg.e8237137975ff44a

Whilst I agree that rape is wrong, I do not believe we live in a 'Rape Culture' and I certainly do not accept her perception because it contradicts reality, and it can be proven so. What I mean by reality is the perceived interpretation of reality (IE; the environment around us) by the majority of people. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that our perception of reality is more or less the same - or even correct but that doesn't mean hers is automatically true if it is proven that most's peoples perception of reality is false. I bring this up pre-emptively to say that, this is an argument that I've had with someone in which I accused them of creating a False Dichotomy, "If nearly everyone's reality is untrue, that means her reality is true." is false. If that makes any sense...

Seriously... If we did a poll in which the members of the public were asked "Do you think Rape should go unpunished?" or "Do you think it should be legal to rape someone?" with the answers "Yes" or "No" and get a Representative Sample Size at the very least, I'm going to hazard a guess here and say the majority of answers will be "No." Which rather disproves 'Rape Culture' as we know it, (Not how Feminism defines it). I do believe TL;DR hit this nail on the head rather better than I could put it.

 

Edited by Wolfie
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Manni    403
Manni

Woah, no need for everyone to get so defensive on my account. Whoreo, if you are after a retraction from what I said at that time, I'll give one now. Sorry Wolfie and  Whoreo, I'll retract what I said about political correctness in the earlier comment. 

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

Woah, no need for everyone to get so defensive on my account. Whoreo, if you are after a retraction from what I said at that time, I'll give one now. Sorry Wolfie and  Whoreo, I'll retract what I said about political correctness in the earlier comment. 

Indeed as I explained here: 

I have ALSO noticed a serious problem with this topic:

The update seems to have screwed with the content, and context. Some posts have been removed, and stuffed into Quotes and it's generally been messed around with by the updater. I'm not sure why, but I'm very tempted to re-structure the topic to fix it. I've also noticed quotes are missing, and the original formatting in some areas has been completely destroyed. 

A lot of the content before the update date (1st July) has been altered at some point during upgrade because of the nested quotes and so on. I've seen and corrected content that was in the wrong post. This topic was quite corrupted. Let's take the stuff said before the update with a bit of salt. Also they were written last year or so ago. Views and opinions change, and so do life stances. Let's keep it civilised.  

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Whoreo    185
Whoreo

Whilst I find your argument reasonable, I find the way you conducted it was unreasonable. 

First of all that rule was made after the post. Whist it would be nice to see why Manni is under the impression and it'd help us learn more about this perspective; I don't think it's right to go on a full frontal tirade. I think calling entire countries "backwards" is perhaps crossing the line; do you have citations and sources to back up that assertion? Fortunately asking and calling for citations works both ways. Cool it down a smidgen, please. There's no sense in attacking someone like that, no matter which side they're on. 

If Manni wants to give a source for it, he's welcome to but not obligated to as the post was made before the ToS rule was put in. Sorry but that's the way it is. I will ask for you to cite why you think these countries are backwards, or I can't take validity in that claim. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid.

The fact that women get much lighter sentencing than men for committing the same crime? especially in regards to pedo/hebophilia, ultimately having sex with a minor. the fact that media constantly refer to these crimes against children as "affairs", "relationships" and so on is abhorrent and disgusting. yet when it's men doing it - it is rape, grooming, and everything evil under the sun - pure and simple.

IF WE DO LIVE IN A RAPE CULTURE! then it's one where it is acceptable to rape boys, as long as you're a god damn woman.

  1. http://www.bestdaily.co.uk/your-life/news/a603479/female-teacher-who-had-2-year-affair-with-14-year-old-student-is-spared-jail.html
  2. http://www.examiner.com/article/child-molester-30-day-sentence-shows-hypocrisy
  3. http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/39783/ <~~~ big fucking list
  4. http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/27/woman-who-had-sex-with-best-friends-12-year-old-son-and-gave-birth-to-his-baby-jailed-5315599/ (three years) do you think for one fucking second if a MAN had gotten A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL pregnant that he would have gotten "three years" in jail?
  5. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/03/woman-who-had-sex-with-14-year-old-boy-is-jailed
  6. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21/former-ravens-cheerleader-sentenced-to-48-weekends-in-jail-for-raping-15-year-old-boy/ (48 weekends in jail, otherwise she's free)
  7. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/405412/Woman-teacher-who-had-sex-with-boy-17-to-be-spared-jail (Free woman)
  8. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/married-woman-who-sex-boy-8901656 (suspended sentance)
  9. http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2015-06-12/woman-jailed-for-sex-with-boy-after-initially-walking-free/ (two and a half years after the judges thought they were "too lenient" on letting her off scott free)
  10. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/my-cousins-wife-groomed-sex-6003041
  11. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-spared-jail-time-sex-15-year-old-article-1.1732170
  12. http://www.themercury.com.au/news/breaking-news/teacher-spared-jail-for-sex-with-pupil/story-fnj6ehgr-1227226054538 (no sentance)

would you like more citations? if there are instances of men getting away with it, this is to the rather public outcry of a lot of people where as the women who were spared often get comments like "what's wrong with the boy? is he gay?" or "you can't rape men" etc...

of course rape is only committed by white men: these "rape culture" conspiracy nutters always look over when it's men of different colours AS WELL AS all women.

  1. http://www.returnofkings.com/57034/why-are-feminists-ignoring-the-violent-gang-rape-of-porn-star-cytherea
  2. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/06/rape-culture-rotherham-and-double-standards/ (reinvent video which backs up this political correctness bullshit)

it is the same with domestic violence, and every other fucking crime under the sun.

I stand by my statement, Wolfie and I will NOT be retracting it. whilst it's clear I meant it as an opinion I can and have backed it up. either:

  • RAPE is RAPE and the law should take this into account, and charge MALES and FEMALES the same with ALL CRIMES. -or-
  • legalise having sex with children as long as the child consents.

I personally prefer the former over the latter.

Woah, no need for everyone to get so defensive on my account. Whoreo, if you are after a retraction from what I said at that time, I'll give one now. Sorry Wolfie and  Whoreo, I'll retract what I said about political correctness in the earlier comment. 

thank you.

 

Indeed as I explained here: 

A lot of the content before the update date (1st July) has been altered at some point during upgrade because of the nested quotes and so on. I've seen and corrected content that was in the wrong post. This topic was quite corrupted. Let's take the stuff said before the update with a bit of salt. Also they were written last year or so ago. Views and opinions change, and so do life stances. Let's keep it civilised.  

keep it civilised? fuck keeping it civilised, I'm keeping it real man.....I was done with that years ago. keeping things civil is why we're in the state we're in today. this is what will happen if we "keep it civilised":

large.VQwF8Ik.jpg.e48eed21570080dc4aaf29

in line with ToS, sure I will try. civil? why the fuck should I be when every day men's rights are being stepped on, crushed and dismissed in the name of Women's equality superiority. I will NEVER stand down or back off while these human rights violations continue. I am a Militant Egalitarian. being civil on these matters is not my prerogative.

Edited by Whoreo

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

Okay I see why you say that, and I have absolutely nothing on the Women get lighter Prison Sentences, or Men's Rights being "Stomped on", because you're absolutely right. 

I do feel it's slightly derailing from the original point though. Which is no one's fault. I think it was inevitable, and this might have to become a part of a topic that starts covering a wider range of subjects because they're all interconnected, we need to some how "Intersectionalise" them. The original point was Ms. Green's video which not only I have debunked but many other people better than I have debunked it as well as proven that these rape statistics are disgustingly out of whack. Of course Rape is wrong, of course fucking children is wrong, of course... Yet we're told that we live in a Rape Culture and it's all Men's (Particularly White Men's) fault, yet it's clearly not, I'm not saying no White Man has never raped anyone, ever. But this is a HUMAN crime, committed by Humans, Gender and Race have nothing to do with it in my opinion. 

I have this horrible feeling that opening up a Feminism debate will be exactly like opening up Pandora's Box. I have said numerous times that it's heading there, and have even contemplated doing it myself, but the truth is I don't even know where to begin and my time is already rather limited, I have a lot of things in my TODO tray. 

The whole issue of Feminism is depressing for me.

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Whoreo    185
Whoreo

Okay I see why you say that, and I have absolutely nothing on the Women get lighter Prison Sentences, or Men's Rights being "Stomped on", because you're absolutely right. 

I do feel it's slightly derailing from the original point though. Which is no one's fault. I think it was inevitable, and this might have to become a part of a topic that starts covering a wider range of subjects because they're all interconnected, we need to some how "Intersectionalise" them. The original point was Ms. Green's video which not only I have debunked but many other people better than I have debunked it as well as proven that these rape statistics are disgustingly out of whack. Of course Rape is wrong, of course fucking children is wrong, of course... Yet we're told that we live in a Rape Culture and it's all Men's (Particularly White Men's) fault, yet it's clearly not, I'm not saying no White Man has never raped anyone, ever. But this is a HUMAN crime, committed by Humans, Gender and Race have nothing to do with it in my opinion. 

I have this horrible feeling that opening up a Feminism debate will be exactly like opening up Pandora's Box. I have said numerous times that it's heading there, and have even contemplated doing it myself, but the truth is I don't even know where to begin and my time is already rather limited, I have a lot of things in my TODO tray. 

The whole issue of Feminism is depressing for me.

I agree with everything you said. it is starting to go slightly off topic and these issues ARE interconnected and feminism is indeed a depressing issue.

but I'd go as far as to say society itself treats women better than it treats men here is SOME examples:

  1. suicide statistics (only a problem if women start committing it more often)
  2. child support/alimony (again only a problem if men claim it from women)
  3. domestic abuse (and the charities in the UK that say "If you're a woman" and gives pages and pages of useful information yet "If you're a man" then you're automatically assumed to be the perp, and it gives you talk lines to get help to stop you abusing. certain ones never seem to see men's domestic abuse to be a problem despite the fact that the rates are indeed equal).
  4. rape (again it's only a problem when men do it to women)
  5. genital mutilation (FGM is rightfully illegal, yet idiots seem to fall over themselves over circumcision. there is a phrase for that "MGM Apologists")
  6. universities had some kind of afferative action for getting women into university because women going to university was low. now it's the other way around this program hasn't stopped and there is no support for men)
  7. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/05/men-urinate-street-hamburg-residents-urine - "The problem is, as I’m sure anyone who has delicately tiptoed their way through the urban wilderness in the early hours of a Saturday morning will agree, hundreds of men have had the same idea, and the streets are running with piss." ... "Although my female friends and I went through a phase of weeing in the street during our university drinking days, it was always through sheer, desperate necessity, at 3am, rather than the more male attitude; a “here’s as good as anywhere” laziness."
  8. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/22/german-court-upholds-mens-right-to-stand-up-while-urinating - openly talk about "Domestication of Men" like we're not even human.
  9. women get lesser punishments than men for the same crime SOME want to abolish it all together.
  10. personal experience it's not okay to try and do anything with female strippers but male strippers are "asking for it"... In my old line of work I got abused to fuck by women, even ridiculed and called a "Faggot" for refusing to have sex with them. I stripped for hen parties and if the husbands of these women knew what they were doing I doubt very much they'd be happy and if the men were doing that to the female strippers I bet the first people calling for divorce would be the woman because it financially benefits her to do so. I was even once told that if I didn't the fat ugly bitch told me that she'd accuse me of raping her. you are an object to them and not even human.
  11. men are disposable. women are not, despite the fact that there are slightly more women on Earth than men.

and the first world fucking problems...

  1. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/06/take-a-stand-against-the-urinal
  2. menspreading (enough said)
  3. mansplaining (but no such thing as womansplaining or fesplaining)
  4. snoring (okay when women do it. not okay when men do it)
  5. game of thrones (men get repeatedly brutalised but the moment a woman does... oh boy)
  6. Air Conditioners are sexist

yeah this topic can't hope to fully encompass all the problems in the world.

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Wolfie    1,801
Wolfie

Most of that was way off topic, although I agree to most, if not everything you said.

I'd also add that whilst the Wage Gap Conspiracy has been debunked people seem to ignore the fact that Women are paid more in porn and modelling than Men doing the same work which in my view violates the Equality Act but people tend to over look this when it is a quite literal Wage Gap.  What bit of it was on topic is also what concerned me the most, which was this...

personal experience it's not okay to try and do anything with female strippers but male strippers are "asking for it"... In my old line of work I got abused to fuck by women, even ridiculed and called a "Faggot" for refusing to have sex with them. I stripped for hen parties and if the husbands of these women knew what they were doing I doubt very much they'd be happy and if the men were doing that to the female strippers I bet the first people calling for divorce would be the woman because it financially benefits her to do so. I was even once told that if I didn't the fat ugly bitch told me that she'd accuse me of raping her. you are an object to them and not even human.

Firstly I want to say I am very, very sorry to hear about your experience in this matter. That is a horrible thing for any human being to do to another human being. To threaten you with an accusation of rape on top of that, is absolutely and outrageously atrocious. I too have my experiences (with both genders) although I don't have the same courage to share them like you did. I really hope you're in a better place now, although I think it kind of explains your anger on the subject.

yeah this topic can't hope to fully encompass all the problems in the world.

I 100% agree. Couldn't agree more. I'm just hoping these debates stay as 'friendly' or as 'civil' as possible. If you would like to make a topic that encompasses all of these issues and more; please feel free to, in fact I invite you and anyone else to. 

Edited by Wolfie
Grammar.

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SMFoxy    555
SMFoxy

personal experience it's not okay to try and do anything with female strippers but male strippers are "asking for it"... In my old line of work I got abused to fuck by women, even ridiculed and called a "Faggot" for refusing to have sex with them. I stripped for hen parties and if the husbands of these women knew what they were doing I doubt very much they'd be happy and if the men were doing that to the female strippers I bet the first people calling for divorce would be the woman because it financially benefits her to do so. I was even once told that if I didn't the fat ugly bitch told me that she'd accuse me of raping her. you are an object to them and not even human.

Yeah. Let's go a little more into this. Not too much, just a little.

"If you don't have sex with me, I'll accuse you of raping me".

If you don't - Yeah, probably. She has no proof, but it's a womans word against a mans word. Not to mention that every other woman who was there would probably support the lie. Unfortunately, if you have no proof you didn't or said no, guess what? Jail time, sunshine. And surprisingly no one recorded the show. All the video evidence from their phones of you saying no/her threatening to accuse you of rape would probably mysteriously vanish, if it existed in the first place.
If you do - Guess what. You had sex with her. The next morning, she'll decide it was against her will despite the fact that it was her that instigated it, and make a false rape accusation anyway. There is proof she had sexual intercourse one way or the other, condom or not. Again, if you don't have proof that she wanted it/coerced you, guess what? Jailtime, sunshine. And again all video evidence of her consenting/coercing you, if any exists, will mysteriously vanish.
One way or the other, the courts probably won't side with you. In conclusion:

TL;DR - Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Sorry to have gone off topic. It's never happened to me, but I can nonetheless sympathise. That's all I really wanted to say.
Though I guess it's not really off topic, since it's still a question of consent. Being coerced is not consent, either way.

Edited by SMFoxy
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