Hello.
I am going to be detailed; yet, I will be blunt, joking, perhaps sarcastic, but absolutely disdainful.
EcchiDreams (Or at least it's Community Administrators) do not approve of this. I "feel" your post is extremely patronising and absolutely demeaning to Neptune; who EARNED the responsibilities she has here. Under what you're promoting, if I enforced it (And I need to have a serious stroke or mental defect to even consider it) then you'd be banned straight away and I will explain why later.
Our definition of harassment for a start; is the legal definition of the law for the country of which we operate from - The United Kingdom (Specifically the UK). It's really a sad day when I have to quote the establishment on something... But you clearly have no idea what harassment even is, and this is "Problematic".
Now in fairness I'm not good a "Legalese" but... I will point out some key bits, like this, because admittedly I don't have that many hours in a day to read all of this crap and understand it myself, again I know that's "Problematic" but I'm not legal expert and nor should any of this be required...
We don't operate under US laws, or any other country and nor are we required to - deal with it.
Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/
Now for some dictionary definitions (And I just know I'm going to get accused of "Appeal to Definition" fallacy but I quite think it rather backs up what the LEGAL definition is, at least for Neptune and myself's country, and the country of which EcchiDreams is currently administrated in.
Merriam Webster: [Source: Archive Link | Page Link]
Dictionary.com [Source: Archive Link | Page Link]
The Free Dictionary (By Farlex) [Source: Archive Link | Page Link]
Your Dictionary (Which uses; Your Dictionary, Wiktionary, Websters New World - LEGAL DICTIONARY) [Source: Archive Link | Page Link]
I will be referencing this alot. So by that - I don't think it's unreasonable that our Terms of Service states the following:
So please elaborate your assertion "It's far too long and your definition of harassment is woefully inaccurate and marginalizes what harassment actually means." means exactly? I'm not trying to sound harsh here... It's a serious question. Because the way I see it; we comply with the law as we're aware of it.
First I will go through what you've said and pick apart/try to explain what's going on here, and why you're facing heavy resistance from us and have gotten the responses you've gotten.
You clearly don't know how the mention system works, and that's okay - I am going to happily explain it you. You did not need to mention us in order for us to read it. Both Neptune and I are subscribed (Following) this forum. I read every single thread and post here, and I aim to reply to all of them as quickly and effectively as possible. This probably wasn't necessary, it's a for 'your information' kind of thing.
Talk Openly? That's fucking ironic; and don't get me wrong Irony makes me laugh - even when the situation isn't appropriate; I got a hell of a giggle out of this one. You will see why; in a little while.
Develop Openly? Err... No thanks. For a start Invision Power Suite is what's called 'Proprietary Software' belonging to Invision Power Services. Again; don't get me wrong, I appreciate Open Sourced stuff as much as anyone else - but the EcchiDreams coding I do on top of the various software, modules, plugins, etc... is NOT open source. I even have two bug trackers - one for technical minded peeps (Current and Future Dev Staff) and one for members; because sometimes I post up a lot of technical details about bugs that quite frankly none of the community would even bother looking at, and even if they did I don't want to be responsible for killing them via boredom.
So already this shouldn't really apply to us.
Yes; it was done on purpose, because I was following the Legal Definition. The only problematic thing is this crap you've suggested we should follow. Normally I wouldn't be this passively hostile against a suggestion, or the suggestion maker... But fuck my life - I don't know how else to respond to this ideological bullshit. The Terms of Service is intentionally long winded because this is:
An Adult Entertainment Site. (Meaning we have.... *trigger warning* PORN!)
We have warnings all over the damn place saying you must be over 18. Therefore we hope that all people here are adults who DON'T need to be treated like children.
We wanted to be as clear as possible and precise as possible across our entire service. We make a lot of things explicitly clear, and fair.
Also:
Fun fact... When I first did this; it was a lot more offensive than this. I was actually advised by other staff members to tone it down, because it was potentially objectionable. I'm not a very good people person.
Is featured quite prominently and in complete stark contrast (IE: It's designed to be eye catching) on our homepage. A "Code of Conduct", especially that one, doesn't even compare to the Terms of Service that we operate on and even if it did: It actually directly contradicts our message and who we are. We're not some authoritarian hard ass that forces people to comply, we certainly don't oppress our members either. A lot of us have enough of this in real world in many, many ways, and a lot of us don't want it happening in this community as well.
As for our definition of harassment; I've already answered that.
No. I have severe issues with this; and I do not care if Github uses it. I don't think it's intended for this type of community and I certainly don't think it's applicable to our community at all [Source: Archive Link | Page Link] ... Wait... Is this Poe's Law in Action?
I implore YOU to (please) stop pushing you ideology on people.
Well this is in direct violation of your "Code of Conduct" and the EcchiDreams "Terms of Service" as I will show you in a moment. This is also not doable; for the same reason we can't accept appeals from people who registered as an under-aged person. The problem is that, we don't actually want to take people's ID's or pictures of them holding a sign with their username... Again, it goes back to what Neptune said - How do you truly know that someone is who they say they are over the internet? Well... You can't. I have no plans on introducing this policy. If you're easily offended - then this site isn't for you (See big red image above). We cannot honour true diversity in age because we cannot allow people who we know to be under 18 to use our service.
You see for your Code of Conduct this falls under:
Our Terms of Service:
And then we come to this comment...
OH BOY. You sure don't sound in anyway patronising (at worst) or sarcastic (at best). I will have you know that Neptune got this position during our First Administration (Incidentally; a Female, not that that matters) and she worked her way up the ranks. For the first year or so she was a Roleplay Moderator, she worked extremely hard and even invested her own money in getting us a Gallery. At the end of the day what does it matter what Gender we are? It shouldn't matter unless you're a flaming Sexist. Why can't we just be human beings? Why does Gender have to be brought into it? I don't understand the logic and quite frankly I'm not surprised Neptune found this comment to be insulting, demeaning and so on.
Also... I'm not trying to tell you your own beliefs (Geez... Last time I did this was with Religious people at my door); but... Two CA's, one Male, one Female. This is "Equal Genders" - yes, to me it is. But to you... Don't you* believe in multiple Genders? Like, way more than two? Wow. You "oppressive shitlord." </joke> If you didn't mean how it's come across - then fine. I'll take you at your word. I don't care what the community staff's Gender, Ethnicity, Race, Colour, Creed, or any of that fucking noise, is. Can they do their job, can they handle responsibilities? If the answer is no; they're not staff. That's it. I don't care about these Identity Politics issues.
Seriously... Is this Poe's law in action?
* This assertion is made because this is clearly a Social Justice angle, so... I thought Social Justice Cultists believed in more than two Genders. Hey; I might be wrong. Can't say I really cared how people identify themselves, at the end of the day I can keep telling myself and everyone around me for example; that I'm a Big Strong Wolfkin. Sadly... It doesn't make it true.
Also... I could very easily say any of the following:
No, all our staff are male, Neptune just identifies as female online to make us LOOK progressive.
No, all our staff are aliens, Neptune just identifies as a female human online to make us LOOK less than too-progressive.
No, all our staff are female, Neptune just identifies as female online because she's the honest one.
We're all computer generated bots.
I'm a Big Strong Wolfkin. Neptune is a cute Neko. Manni is a fruit ninja warrior. SMFoxy is pink person with a Pikachu on his head and Ardilla is whatever the fuck he feels like. Like a Ditto, but a billion-gazillion times more awesome. OH! And Bi-Sexed!
My personal favourite "I identity as a double ended dildo"
We're all of the above.
Online; anyone can be anyone, again it doesn't make it true. It's called Anonymity, and EcchiDreams supports it.
I did. I was horrified. Then I did some digging around and I found something very sneaky. Very dishonest (at worst). Oh yes.
This is coming. Queue the "WOLFIE IS A MISOGYNIST!!!!1111!!!!111!!!!" Posts. Spoiler Alert: I'm a Human Rights Advocate.
We are indeed a small community. That's what happens when you don't pay for advertising, considering we've never paid for advertising - I'd say we're doing fairly well. Kind of. We're growing slowly, but surely, and we're starting to get active Dreamers and the ones I've spoken to are nice, decent human beings. As for saying a lot about my character... Oh piss off, mate. You don't know me. You have no idea who I am, what I represent, what I do, or anything like that. Want to know how I know? You didn't even read my About Me page which would have given you at least a glimpse of what I am into.
I know how I'd judge my character by adopting this... It's not good. I'm not going to question your judgement here, and if I have... I apologise (for that, and that only) this isn't a personal attack, but you have so missed the mark about what EcchiDreams is, or what we do, and why. You so very clearly missed the mark about who we are as the community too.
This is probably the most creepy thing anyone has ever said to me on EcchiDreams, ever. Seriously... I want to call Poe's law and I think I am going to call Poe's law. But this has been really fun for me.
--- From this point on "You" does not refer to the Topic Creator ---
Unfortunately from what I can tell the Code of Conduct isn't Poe. It's actually a thing. So why do I have such an overt problem with it? Well first off. From what I can tell it was adopted by several notable corporations (Apparently) such as "Microsoft", "Facebook", "Twitter", "Yahoo" and "Google" just to name a few. However it seems that this was back in July (From what I can tell on their Twitter), I haven't spent an awful lot of time researching it so if I am wrong - Please let me know.
Tweets:
The dates seem to be before July 23rd - and since then the Twitter account hasn't posted since [Source: Archive Link | Page Link] Now you might be asking; So fucking what Wolfie, why is this even fucking relevant? Well... Remember what I said earlier?
Well, back then the Code of Conduct looked like this and I don't personally have anywhere near as much of a problem: https://archive.is/chnLD With this one, however... It now looks like this: https://archive.is/RBcKO
And the dishonest part? Both of them are version "1.0" to me this is Dishonest at worst, disingenuous at best. But hey... It could be a complete accident. Why do I have a problem with this? Because despite them both being Version "1.0"; they've had quite significant changes. [Source: Archive Link | Page Link]
My main issues? This is clearly not meant for this type of community. It is meant for the Open Source Community. It's great an all that they're getting a Code of Conduct and more power to them, I couldn't really give a flying fuck. I certainly don't think you should be registering to forums and pushing this onto those communities because we're not fucking Open Source Software Communities... Seriously. Learn the difference. But seeing as you brought this to my attention; I will now pick apart what I find abhorrent about this Code of Conduct. Because you've brought this steaming pile of dog shit to our community, and quite frankly I'm laughing my arse off at the inherent stupidity that is about to follow.
Wow, bloody hell... So no infractions? No warnings? Straight up (Maybe/Maybe not) instanta-ban? Ouch. I'd sure hate to have a shit ton of files up there only to have the Politically Correct and Perpetually Offended Police for just having the word "Retard" in there; regardless to the fact it could be used in context for example a swearword filter? Where does it end? Do they do this to these words too? If this is the case and I implement this Code of Conduct (As I said earlier half of my brain would have to by missing) then fuck... I'm banned.
Perhaps a better phrase for "expect our code of conduct to be honored" would be "expect our code of conduct to be obeyed" as that would follow the next sentence. This is going to start off as a warm up, a bit nitpicky but I'm just going though how we'd have conflicts with this.
Well that's nice. So if I am a naturally impatient person I'm banned or at risk of being banned. Admittedly I'm just nitpicking for this one. Being serious here... It's good that one would strive as a community to be friendly and patient. It's something that EcchiDreams shares; we would love our community to be known as friendly and patient.
Awesome. It's a shame you actually stab this one in the face later on. Also... "Gender Identity" when I first read this I thought 'Uh oh... Here we go...' - "We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack." But no... Again more or less they pretty much hit a nail on the head. Honestly it's a nice sentiment... Although "Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others." Isn't that the whole point of Open Source? Again I don't know... EcchiDreams is more/or less on the same track here. We don't accept certain behaviours; we don't ban them or disable their accounts right away but eh... Different sites; different types of communities; different rules. I can get that.
Things that wouldn't apply to EcchiDreams:
"Be careful in the words that we choose: we are a community of professionals, and we conduct ourselves professionally." - I am far from fucking professional, at least in how I carry myself sometimes. When it comes to the Staff Policy (That is Policy for Staff) I do conduct myself professionally. But speech wise? Fuck that. Sounds like Political Correctness.
"Your work will be used by other people..." Er... No. We have actually have a Plagiarism rule. Again - Fine in an Open Source Community (I assume, I don't know, or really care) but here... No.
Points I'd like to contest:
"Being unable to understand why someone holds a viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong." & "Different people have different perspectives on issues." - Can you tell the Social Justice Cultists that please? K'thx.
"It’s important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one." - Yes... It's IMPORTANT to remember that. We'll get to this nugget in a minute.
It's all so subjective. "We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack." - Problem is... What constitutes a personal attack with the SJC crowd? Your definition of Harassment is so WAY off the mark, criticising someone over something stupid they've said or done? Well yes actually. Because we all know that a Misogynist to a Social Justice Cultist means "Someone who disagrees with the views of a Feminist (And therefore hates all women)" whereas Misandry "Isn't a real word." (Not quoted from this, they are examples).
NOW we get to the meat of it. Where I have the more serious problems and why it conflicts with EcchiDreams, and for added fun my personal gripes with it.
Here we go...
Define Offensive? Because you SJC's find everything offensive, don't you? I think you can do these things without "Harassing" but you can indeed do these things whilst you're "Harassing" - You don't have to be harassing someone to be offensive, and you don't have offensive to be harassing someone. They're not mutually exclusive. Offensive "Comments" related to Gender, Sexual Orientation and Race as far as I am aware are indeed crimes. It's called Hate Speech. Although I'm not sure that "Neuro(a)typically" is something covered under the Harassment Law, and making comments without being asked to stop isn't harassment under UK law.
Define Unwelcome? Granted making comments about these things aren't nice - but it's not harassment. Not on it's own, anyway.
Now we're getting to dishing out orders! "Awesome. Well done." Not harassment but nice try.
Oh for fuck sake. After "A" request to stop? Continual doesn't mean twice. Idiots. (Adjective: forming a sequence in which the same action or event is repeated frequently.) Also... Seriously? Do these textual descriptions trigger people? My fucking my, my... What sensitive, fucking-special little snowflakes. This would seriously fuck our site right over seeing as a large fucking part of this site is for Roleplaying. Granted... I can understand it being harassment if these people are being told (and I mean individually) that you're not happy with it, and they keep doing it. Granted; I wouldn't have pegged Open Source Communities to be plagued with this problem... *hugs* - Do you feel better now?
Yes. That's not harassment... But it is illegal. I'm not sure what a Threat of Psychological Violence looks like and I'm too tired at this point to Google it. I wonder how many acts of violence threatened over the internet with a "Worldwide" Memberbase are actually ever carried out. Granted - It's not nice. But if physical violence is being threatened then go to the Police/FBI (in the US).
Sure. If repeated. We already have this anyway, only we don't like inciting violence against groups of people either. Mmm... Seems like a "little site" has a better "Code of Conduct" than a group who's sole purpose was to make a Code of fucking Conduct! OH MY~...
Sure. If repeated. I listened and believed that in the UK it comes under the Malicious Communications Act too.
Well... That's our Followers System fucked then, isn't it? I believe though this is actually considered harassing behaviour. I'm pretty sure it has to be repeated with the person saying "Stop Stalking/Following Me" repeatedly. But... There we go.
Well... This is subjective. And assumes Guilty until Proven Innocent. "Including logging online activity for harassment purposes" - Er... EcchiDreams records the Time and Date you made post, when you were last online, who and when a person looked at your profile, does that mean the software is Harassing? Well... I'm guessing not. But seriously how the hell do you prove that someone is doing this shy of actually getting/pointing out the evidence? Is it merely enough to assert that they're doing it? Does it require evidence? What's going on here?
I'm pretty sure that's just being a disruptive arsehole. It's neither illegal (on it's own) or harassing. Childish and immature; sure. Potentially... But I'm pretty sure that's just being a disruptive arsehole.
Well that's most of the forums gone then, isn't it and quite a lot of threads too, I'd imagine. Also if this is repeated for the sexual attention - then yes I'd imagine this is Sexual Harassment. The rest though... I'm not too sure. BUT- I completely agree that Unwelcome Sexual Attention, is unwelcome, however... Gratuitous - (done without good reason; uncalled for) (given or done free of charge) Under the first definition our sexual images and 'behaviour' are justified because that's the point of our site. Under the second definition; we are gratuitous because our site is free.
Well that is extremely subjective and nebulous again. What is inappropriate and intimate to one person isn't to another. Also this would probably require us to shut down the Sexual Discussion Forums.
YES! That is harassment! "Awesome~! Well done~!"
No. That's Doxing.
... Fucking seriously? "non-harassing" How is this in any way harassment? This is why EcchiDreams doesn't have a "Private Message" system. We have an EcchiText System, if someone chooses to make it public... That's their choice.
Then we get on to everything that confirmed my initial suspicions.
First of all. I cannot believe or begin to fathom what is written here. What in the name of the actual fuck? Do you seriously expect me to make this policy on EcchiDreams? I had to re-read this several times and I am still stunned that they're so open and flagrant about it. They prioritise over "Marginalised People's Safety" over "Privileged People's Comfort" how twisted is their world view..? We'll see shortly where this comes from, and why I am an Anti-Feminist (At least Anti-Modern-Day-First-World-Problems-Feminist) and Anti-Social Justice. How about treating everyone equally and fairly, regardless of "Privilege"... How the fuck do you even measure that on-line?! I could claim to be a Alien from outside this galaxy and I'd be the most Minoritised person on the fucking planet, which clearly these people are no longer apart of any-more. How do you quantify it? Look... I get that you Cultists think you're doing good by being so inclusive but you're actively being exclusive too. How is this any different from not acting on complaints regarding people who are black, and before someone replies with the bullshit "Because White People are the dominant blah blah blah..." Perhaps - in the Western World, but say if a White Person moves to Asia, does that mean even there where it's majoritively Asians (I'd imagine) that automatically that person moves from Privileged to Oppressed? You said you're worldwide; and yet... Oh my head... The mental gymnastics you cultists pull... Fuck... I can just about wrap my head around Time Travel... But this fucking bullshit... Ugh... That stroke is coming...
Second of all. There is NO such thing as Reverse -isms. Racism is racism, Sexism is Sexism, and as for not dealing with Cisphobia... I'll get to that in a moment. There's a whole cluster fuck of nonsense going on here, let's start pulling this thread out shall we? So what they mean by reverse-ism's like racism and sexism is people who are racist against "White people" and reverse sexism is basically "Males" because "White Men have all the power" apparently.
Thirdly... Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts? Oh I bet you won't deal with them, at all, anything that challenges the narrative is the enemy, right?! And "Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions"? So basically this is completely incompatible with this Code of Piss Poor Conduct said earlier. EcchiDreams allows for and encourages the criticism and discussion of ideas, etc., unlike Social Justice that will censor, shame, harass and so on...
Lastly... Double Standards Much? "Cisphobia" or as I'd like it coin an invalid term "Reverse-Transphobia" is just as bad to me as being transphobic/being a bigot.
Do you not see the conflict? No-of-course-you-don't...
Oh really? But if it involves Whites and/or Males - Fuck it. Perhaps you fail (all the times) because you inherently DON'T treat people fairly or equally. If someone has been offended it's not your fucking job to right the wrong. It's their problem. Not yours. I know you want to feel good about yourselves, but for fuck sake... Oh... And I hate to break it to you... But this "People of Colour" narrative... White is a colour, too. We are all people, human.
Fun Fact! Did you know that all humans are the same colour on the inside?
* Except for White Males. ** Not mentioned here but we'd like to add, except for Right Wing people [[I am libertarian left before we start assuming "My character" again.]]
There fixed it for you. You might as well be honest because at this point you're already fucking lying.
"based on any of the protected characteristics above, including participants with disabilities." You're not running a fucking zoo, like some kind of Animal/Wildlife preserve.
If you witness it and the person involved hasn't reported it... Then is it any of your fucking business?! No.
"Geek Feminism" by the way seems to be where the shit I have the major issues with came from. So there we have it. Conclusive proof, and confirmation that Feminism is about hating men. White men in particular. So you see now Emma Watson, why Feminism has become Synonymous with "Man Hating"? Unrelated Sources [Source 1 (YouTube) | Source 2 (YouTube) | Source 3 (YouTube) | Source 4 (YouTube) | Source 5 (YouTube) | Source 6 (YouTube) | Source 7 (YouTube, Sargon of Akkad) | Source 8 (Archived - Instagram, Green Party USA)] Not satisfied? Or are you (the reader) itching to reply with "They're not True Feminists" (The Not a True Scotsman Fallacy) Alright. Let's take some quotes from these charming women feminists.
[Quoted From: Cultural-Misandry.com]
Feminists and Social Justice Warriors are welcome on EcchiDreams, as long as you abide by our Terms of Service. Don't use EcchiDreams to spread your ideological hate, it's not welcome here.
I didn't know about any of this today (because of this thread) but apparently, GitHub has chosen to adopt this policy, which is their free choice, of course. Just as it is my free choice to close my account with them, which I have now done. If this hadn't of been pushed on to our community through a suggestion of which I'm sure if I refuse I will face some kind of backlash then I probably would have found out sooner or later, closed my account with them and I would have said nothing more on the subject... But oh~ no.
Anyway. I had good fun with this.
Looking forward to a response; but I predict one of a few things happening. You'll never come back and never see my post; it's okay. It wasn't for you. Or because I refused to toe the Social Justice Cult line - I will be hounded in some kind of futile attempt to change my stance. If all else fails resort to your big mean words like "Rape Apologist", "Muhsoggyknees", "Rapist", "Transphobe", "Homophobe" (Pansexual by the way. Not ever represented as a letter in LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ-ABC123 community though...), and so on and so forth... Another possibility is that the people responsible for this drek will probably rip our ToS apart to "Correct" it to Social Justice Standards... I really couldn't give a fuck, as I have said in the past. Although I do welcome criticism, if the point is well made, I may end up taking suggestions on board. Replacing our Terms of Service with something that isn't for EcchiDreams, isn't for this kind of community, and so on with this garbage? Yeah... Not going to happen whilst I'm a Community Administrator here.
I describe myself as a "Classic Liberal" I guess. I believe quite strongly in equality for all under the law, I believe in merit, unless there's an angle I don't know about - I describe myself as absolutely libertarian. This kind of Authoritarianism doesn't sit well with me. I am not offended, but I cannot possibly begin to understand why Modern Feminism and Social Justice Cultists are taken in any way shape or form seriously. They use words like weapons, and these weapons only have so many uses until people end up not giving a fuck. Their definition of Harassment (much like their definition of Sexism, Rape, Racism, and so on) doesn't connect with how everyone else sees it. Unfortunately this isn't a good road to go down, without wanting to go off topic here... The problem with this is it takes legitimacy away from the real victims of these crimes, and it's these people I feel sorry for the most. Whilst I was angry when I first read the Code of Conduct (Not this topic) I really did enjoy getting my thoughts down on here and as I have already said - if anyone would like to discuss this with me; please feel free to do so (Probably not here because it might be going off topic), but if it's overwhelming I guess I will throw this topic (or split it) into the debate forums.
This thread will not be closed, as I am not going to be accused of censorship, something I find absolutely abhorrent in most if not nearly all circumstances.
TL;DR: Suggestion Rejected. Reason? Read above.
To the Reader: Are you offended? If you feel I violated your fee-fees with this; feel free to report my post - the link can be found at the very top of my post - or click here.
At the moment the project is stalled; because there have been a number of higher priority issues that have taken precedence. I want to highlight that I do see the need for one, and we're working on it as quickly as possible. We still don't have our credit system back yet either. So yeah; it's all things we're working on.