General Meta Discussions

[Tema]

This topic is for people who don't want to make a topic for something EcchiDreams related. It's for everything EcchiDreams related, but if you think it deserves it's own topic outright then you can do so by clicking/tapping here. 

[Tema]

There is quite a number of Section 18 violations going around (In specific: posts that depict minors in nude or sexual situations) and the common excuse is that people simply didn't know. I understand this, and I am asking you now to please check. Because we don't want to get into trouble, and risk having our site shut down over it, or worse. I spoke about this in an announcement last year in the Winter Update announcement; where I said, and quote (Feel free to skip the quote to keep reading):

Quote

Depictions of Minors in Nude or Sexual Situations

Lastly... Lolicon, Shotacon and the like, has not been allowed on EcchiDreams for a very long time. in fact, around this time in 2013 I made a topic about it, explaining why it wasn't allowed on EcchiDreams. I don't want to be too negative or harsh, and I want to keep my personal biases out of it, so I will just stick as closely to the facts of the matter as possible. 

The Facts

Computer Images, Drawn, Generated or otherwise (Depictions) of those that are under 18 (Minors), Nude or in Sexual Situations, are in fact illegal in the following countries: Australia, Brazil, Canada, Finland, France, Italy, Japan (somewhat, I'm not sure), Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, South Africa, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States. 

• [UK Law]:- Coroners and Justice Act 2009 - Sections 62 to 68 - It's classed as a "Pseudo Photograph" which is "an image, whether made by computer-graphics or otherwise howsoever, which appears to be a photograph".
• [US Law]:- 18 USC 1466A - (Source 2) - Where it is stated as clear as day: "In General - Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that—(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and (B) is obscene; or (2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and (B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value; or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction."
• Just for Information and Reference, as it might tell you which laws they are in the other listed countries, I am not holding this as reliable source, but the above mentioned are linked to reliable sources (The horse's mouth as it were).
  • Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_drawn_pornography_depicting_minors

Our Stance on it Historically

EcchiDreams was originally set up by KC (@Casey's Administration); she was the original owner of the site back then, and was certainly more well funded than I am. Originally, she let everything except Gore (and I think also Vore) to be posted up, because she absolutely allowed all things artistic. This was in 2006/2007, back when I was just someone who helped out and helped with development/coding, those kind of things. After just a few months, she ran her original Terms of Service past a legal expert in the United States (as she was an American Citizen) and, after talking about it, there was some changes made; very quickly that kind of content was also banned, before the site even launched. I had vocally protested the stupidity of it at the time, but I wasn't an actual member (I couldn't register until 2008 - when I was 18), so it didn't really matter.

The rule was kept in during the Second Administration (near the end of 2008) under Illogically Logical, despite her incompetency and lack of enforcing any rules (she was barely online), she kept this in the Terms of Service. (Those that have been around that long know that I don't have many nice things to say about the Second Administration). 

Things very quickly changed in 2010 on a relaunch of the site under a third administrator: The NekoLust Administration. It became a Zero Tolerance Offence and anyone posting it was banned immediately, no ifs, ands, or buts. The Terms of Service were draconian, to say the very least.

Under my Administration (sometime after 2011 to the present day), I've relaxed the ToS a lot, and scrapped all but three Zero Tolerance Rules. Despite this, it is still a Major Infraction (like a Felony), and carries 50-75 Points that expire after a year; also coming with some restrictions, such as all posts made by the offending account will be placed on a Mod Queue. This is something that adds work for us, so as you can imagine we don't want to do that on a whim. Despite this, I also have an unwritten clause; that is that First Time Offenders do have some leniency given to them for certain offences, and this is one of them. But repeat offenders could face heavy warnings, and eventual ban. I think this is firm, but fair.

Today, it is a violation of sections: 8.2 (the last part), 15.1 (because it is Illegal), and 18 (general Gallery rules) of our Terms of Service. 

So with this in mind...

In the past few months we've had a fair few Dreamers that have posted such content, and we've upheld our Terms of Service, dealing with it appropriately under the credo "Firm but Fair". In all recent cases we've shown leniency (0-10 infraction points for ones that aren't so obvious, 25 for obvious depictions of minors in nude or sexual situations, all of which expire in six months from the warning, but have no restrictive actions) because all of them are first time offenders.

However... All of them this year, with exceptions to just one or two of them, have responded to these infraction points by going completely nuts! I mean completely off the deep end, like a child throwing a temper tantrum. A number of them start acting with either passive-aggression (which is what it is) or, even less acceptable, extreme hostility towards our staff, just for enforcing the very same Terms of Service that we all agreed to when we registered, and it's something that seems to be getting objectively worse. On the past five occasions since September, some have even gotten down right abusive towards our staff (Violation of Section 20.2). It's a disproportionate response to that kind of infraction. It's like like going nuclear just for getting a parking ticket, and it's become a bit of a concerning pattern.  

Let me make this absolutely crystal clear; 

• If it looks like a child or someone under 18, or is tagged on popular imageboards as being Lolicon/Shotacon or similar, or if canonically the person is under 18 and they are nude or in a sexual situation, then err on the side of caution and do not post it here. It's really not that hard. We understand that "looks like" is subjective, which is partly why there is leniency for First Time Offenders.
• If you can't talk to us about it like a rational adult upon getting infraction points on your account (IE: melting down like a child not getting their way), then consider going somewhere else. I have enough to deal with; and as I said in 2013, I don't want the drama. I am certainly not willing to risk my freedom by allowing that content here, either.
• We don't "Hate anyone" who posts it, we don't "Hate it" and we're not trying to be "A Bitch" or (my personal favourite) "Anti-Loli Nazis" about it, but the Law is the Law, and I can't just decide to allow it. It's regarded in our country as being practically the same as Child Pornography. That's a heavy prison sentence right there, and far reaching consequences for the rest of my adult life. Why is it fair that I should be demanded to take that kind of risk, exactly? 
  • If you don't like the fact that's illegal in your country, you're going to have to take that up with your legislators. Until it's no longer illegal in the US and the UK, it's not allowed on this site. I am not risking EcchiDreams or my freedom over this.
  • If the legality of it doesn't bother you, or you're somewhat unconvinced of the actual laws I've literally cited, then consider this: We pay the server fees and licence fees, so we get to decide what is and isn't allowed on our site... And depictions of minors nude or in sexual situations isn't allowed. We totally have that right, just like you have the right to go somewhere else if it bothers you that much.
• Lolicons and Shotacons that aren't sexualised, in a sexual situation, or naked (no genitals on display) are allowed here. That's not banned at all.
• Roleplaying it, as far as I am aware, is legal, as it comes under free speech/expression.

We as Staff aren't trying to get everyone restricted, suspended, or banned, but we do have to enforce our Terms of Service; no one is exempt from them. We don't give out special favours, not even to friends or ourselves. Accept it and move on, or go to another site. We'd be happy to Section 21 your account for you (Terminate/Deactivate it upon request), just shoot us a message in the contact form, or by EcchiTexts to any of the Community Administrators, tell us you want your account to be closed, and we'll close it. No fuss, no hassle, no begging for you to stay, no questions asked!

And just to correct a commonly touted fallacy: Just because we're a Hentai friendly site doesn't mean we have to accept depictions of minors nude or in sexual situations at all. For example: Konachan is an Anime/Hentai Image Board that doesn't allow Yaoi (last time I checked). It sucks but that's their prerogative, just like this is our prerogative. They pay their server fees and they get to decide what is and isn't allowed there, just like we pay ours and we get to decide what is and isn't allowed here.

I'm seriously not trying to be an "Anti-Loli Nazi" about it, but I am fed up of seeing my staff, who work here voluntarily (completely free) on a website that is completely free of charge, getting abused by those that can't take the smallest of infractions, who can't accept responsibility or accept when they're in the wrong; it's always someone else's fault. I don't want to make it a Zero Tolerance Offence again; I hope that people can start being more adult about it. By all means come and talk to me about it calmly. I will explain myself calmly in return. But as the law stands: It is what it is.

I hope this issue can be put to rest once and for all. I don't want any more repeat incidents of categorical abuse being leveled against any of my staff from now on. That's out of line, and I will not accept it; they don't deserve that.

Luckily we haven't been receiving the same abuse we once did; thank you by the way. But at the same time we don't want to look like Authoritarians on the issue because we do understand that sometimes it's an accident, and sometimes it might not be all that clear. On this understanding, I've developed a handy little flowchart for people to follow to check if their image is good. That way if you get clobbered for it, you can say "I followed the flow chart" and show us what you found, and we can show you what we found, and we can improve on it to stop accidental postings. However there has been some confusion on the matter too, where people think just because it's not outright lolicon or shotacon that it's fine. That's not what the Terms of Service says; it says depicts or appears to depict a minor in nude or sexual situations; which includes everyone under 18. 

Here is the flowchart in question:

So this is not the officially sanctioned flow chart, like it's not going to be part of a guide or in official use on EcchiDreams, until it passes rigorous testing. It also needs to be scrutinised, heavily and improved upon - I think. Feel free to leave a comment in regards to the "Flowchart Feedback". By the way this isn't an official endorsement of https://saucenao.com but it's a very powerful reverse image search site that uses Gelbooru, Danbooru, Sankakucomplex, E621 and various other sources where an image you upload can be seen. You can get a browser addon for Saucenao as well - which you can find here: https://saucenao.com/tools/ this is a tool that some of the staff use to work out what images are good and bad. If you don't use Google by the way, for the character name search you can use whatever search engine you normally use. Saucenao will also try to tell you who the character(s) are, so you can use that data to search, but if it doesn't one of the popular image boards might have that information.

I hope this is helpful, to you all, and as I said if you have any comments or feedback about the flowchart itself, then please leave them in this topic. I will read them. Any posts that ask us to remove the rule will be ignored - I'm not going to, and that's not up for debate until it's no longer illegal. You can say it's stupid all you want, but you're preaching to the choir because we actually agree with you, we know it's stupid.