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Temaelrin

[Debate] EcchiDreams - Lolicon and Shotacon

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Temaelrin

Lolicon and Shotacon
 
gallery_1_8_98699.jpg
Why EcchiDreams doesn't allow it, and why I'm unhappy with that. 

For a brief while, EcchiDreams allowed anything and everything Cartoon related (With exception to Guro). Now I don't pretend to know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I'm not a lawyer and quite frankly I have better things to do than to read and try to understand every stupid law that comes out, because a lot of it to me seems like censorship, which a free government isn't supposed to be doing. What's worse is these laws are often signed away from public eyes and that's generally not a good sign. Even when most of the population agree that a law needs to be changed (Take Marijuana for example) the governments do nothing about it. So much for democracy. [And that's an entirely different discussion and a whole lot of can of worms...]
 
Lolicon has been illegalised in the following countries [According to Wikipedia]:

 

*As of 28th November 2013.
 
Obviously when this all came to light, our first reaction was shut the down the forums and scrub the Lolicon away. At the time, I wasn't the Site Administrator, but I was very vocal about this, and I guess in someways it still pisses me off today.
 
Allow me to explain:
 
I personally don't care for or hate Lolicon, or Shotacon, or anything that depicts or is a minor who is under the age of 18. That's not how I get my rocks off if you will. To me it's a fetish (Like, Chibis, Furry, Normal Hentai and so on). It doesn't show real abuse where real children are involved and therefore I don't see a problem with it, personally. It's one of those things that I'd tolerate and with-hold judgement against because that's who I am. At the end of the day; I'd rather someone use these images than images of actual children. 
 
People go by the logic that if someone looks at pictures of real children (Nude or in sexual situations) then that'd encourage them to abuse themselves. By THAT logic, if people look at Lolicon or Shotacon, the most they'll do is fucking draw Lolicon. But this isn't the logic they're using. Apparently if you look at Lolicon/Shotacon it's just as bad as the real thing therefore you'll do the abuse yourself. One problem with that... I've seen NO studies, NO scientific evidence that backs this up and as far as I am concerned there is NO link between people who look at Loli/Shota and Peadophilia. I find it hard to believe that if someone looks at say, the picture above and finds an uncensored version that they'll go out and rape children. That kind of mentality is so logically flawed, I wouldn't even know where to start poking holes in it. 
 
The problem is people use the line "WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN"... I say it's not the Governments job to do that, it's YOUR job as a parent and human fucking being to educate. This line is being used more and more. Even with the UK's new "Opt-out Filtering Service" [Which again is a whole different discussion with a whole can of worms.]
 
Granted we do need to better protect children from Sexual Predators, but not like this. This is wrong on so many levels and I reckon the UK Government at least knows this, otherwise they wouldn't have passed the bill in secrecy.
 
So why does EcchiDreams not allow it? 

  • It's illegal. (Despite my problems with this law)
  • I do not wish to be branded as a peadophile just for allowing people to post their art.
  • I do not wish to be put on the Sex Offenders Register.
  • I do not want EcchiDreams to be shut down over this.
  • I do not want members of this community being penalised in their countries for visiting this site.
  • I can do without the drama.

Do I (personally) like that we don't allow it?
 
What do you think? No.
 
Because I feel this is one violation of many of our right to Free Expression. I don't think any form of art should be illegal, really. Even offensive art. You have the choice to look at it or not. I find it disgusting and morally repugnant that the Government makes laws in private, not just laws like this but laws in general. I feel it paves the way to make more and more porn illegal, and it's already happening here in the UK. Once these things are illegal then they can control other things on the internet because it's common place. Don't believe me? It's already happened and is happening right now.

The Government shouldn't be allowed to dictate what you can and cannot do in the privacy of your own home. At the end of the day, if the picture was drawn by a consenting adult, and viewed by a consenting adult then that's not any of their business. If you didn't want to look at it, then click the back button or fuck off somewhere else, it's not fucking rocket science. Granted if it's being shown to kids then the problem is supplying porn to minors, not the porn itself. 
 
I'd like to think of myself a reasonable thinking adult. I've never understood the world and frankly the world has never understood me. I always thought I'm the least qualified to say what should be acceptable and not acceptable in society, but fuck me... The Governments of these countries including my own are seriously fucked in the head. As I said this extends far beyond just Lolicon and Shotacon being censored, but when you look at it from an outsiders point of view you can see that pictures depicting rape and porn depicting rape is getting banned, despite the fact it's made (USUALLY) by consenting adults. 
 

Oh and I really don't give a shit if you're a parent and think the internet would be a better place for your child without porn - That, quite frankly is your problem. Don't make it everyone else's problem. YOU should be responsible for what YOUR children do online, not the fucking Government. I believe children should be educated not moddy-coddled and wrapped in cotton wool. That said, don't let me tell you how to raise your children, but don't you fucking dare dictate how I should or should not raise mine.

We're stepping closer and closer to a nanny-big-brother state and I've had enough to be honest, but the population at large don't seem to see this. If you don't want your child to look at porn it should be up to you as the parent to block it on your network. If you don't know how to do this there are loads of tutorials online and even services that will help. 

Excuse my swearing, I am extremely passionate about our freedoms, civil liabilities and so on. I don't describe myself as Left or Right, politically speaking, or even anywhere near that two dimensional scale. At the risk of going off topic discussing the UK's Porn Filter [Which is switched on by default. YOU have to call your ISP to turn it off... That's fucking backwards.] I will wrap up.
 
My point is; Lolicon and Shotacon are just images, drawn by someone who happens to like that art style. Either male or female, I don't really care. They're expressing their art, and I find it shit-covered-bollocking-crazy that people can tell people what they can and cannot draw, and what art they can and cannot look at. So what do you think? I'd be happy to debate this subject, whilst I'm extremely happy for those who have an opinion to state it, lets try and keep personal name calling to a minimum. We do have a Terms of Service. :) I don't expect everyone to agree with me here, but it's definitely frustrating to see this happening. 

My final problem is; it's written in such a way that you're practically guilty until proven innocent, which is NOT how the law is supposed to work. You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. For example; they do not need to prove that the character IS under 18, if it looks under 18 that's probable cause. YOU need to prove that the character in question IS over 18. Which you can't do because it's a fictional character and the artist might be all the way in Japan or somewhere else. Sorry but to me that's fucking backwards and no law should operate like that. But then again we're seeing this an awful lot lately, guilty until proven innocent -- Just look at the NSA, GCHQ and other spying claims. Again that's another debate, and another fucking can of worms. 

All hail our great and infallible leaders. </sarcasm>

[P.S. I know my spelling and grammar might leave a lot to be desired, but there you have it. People wanted my opinion there it is.]

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SMFoxy

"WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN"

 

Which children would they be in cases of loli/shota images anyway?

The 2D ones [or 3D if that's the art style. The point is they're drawn, not photos] that don't really exist?

That's my problem with it. The self appointed Moral Guardians have an issue with it because, well, the children...

But it doesn't hurt real kids. No one gets them to pose for it [to my knowledge, at least I certainly hope not], and no one forces them to look at it [again, to my knowledge/I hope not].

So that would be my argument against that part at least.

 

As for the rest of it, you pretty much summed up how I feel about all this stupidity anyway, so basically: Seconded.

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ArdillaVerde93

That stuff is illegal in the US? O_O Well, I have a Memory Stick to wipe clean.

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Whoreo

Well fucking said mate. I'm glad there is people out there that thinkthe same way I do.

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Manni

Tripp, I don't think studies into the effect, if any, of long time exposure to lolicon or shotacon would be possible as such experiments would fall foul of the spirit of the Helsinki Declaration and wouldn't past muster of any medical ethics panel. There would be too many practical difficulties for one, such as getting consistent exposure to the material and monitoring such exposure but also methodological issues such as ruling out other factors and what is even to be measured. 

 

Regardless of whether a positive or negative result was obtained from studies, if such a thing could even be done, I doubt people would change their minds. This is one of those arguments that don't rely on evidence but is about principle and argument. 

 

Anyway, I think the main reason governments have legislated such things is due to people forgetting that the main function of government is to allow and enable ALL citizens to live out their conception of the good [how they wish to live] and NOT to enforce one's private morality, no matter how widely shared it is. After all, feelings of disgust and offence cannot be construed as harm as the impact of such things cannot be proven or measured. As the major justification for legislation is that it is meant to be prevent harm and that no harm can be said to come of drawn pornography...

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LazarusLuna

Hmmm where to start on this one.

 

This subject has always been contentious to my understanding. For example; some places have taken the law to prosecute people for the most stupid things and discriminate against women due to breast size. There is also label that liking it automatically makes you a paedophile. (Which it doesn't) The cases I am speaking of are the following:

 

Texas:

 

A man was taken to court and given jail time due to the fact he had lolicon manga collection and general memorabilia. Nothing harmful but enough to make people paint him with the pedo brush. The manga in question was Dance in the Vampire Bund. (I have seen it in anime form and it is pretty interesting.) He has now been placed on the sex offenders register and is never allowed to have children. All because he owned a manga about a vampire queen

who is hiding in a child form so vampire warlords don't try to take her against her will and start a war.

There is NO sexual content in the manga at all. Just a romantic relationship that can never happen truly happen

not due to age or species but down to the fact if warlords found out she had grown up and wasn't a virgin they would pretty much rape her until she conceived a child.

 

Also the sad thing is is that the anime has a 15 rating here in the UK and has been licence by MangaUK:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dance-The-Vampire-Bund-DVD/dp/B005FVN54W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1401396588&sr=8-3&keywords=dance+in+the+vampire+bund

 

The manga is also perfectly legal to buy.

 

Australia:

 

The law on loli has also made it illegal for women below C up to be featured in porn of any kind. This in turn is discriminating against flat chested women and will make females who aren't naturally gifted feel rubbish about their own body image. In this day an age women don't need any more pressures on how they should look and porn used to back that up. But thanks to this law women are paranoid that they won't get a partner because they are too flat chested. 

 

 

Sweden:

 

A man has been jailed for life simply for having artwork of children. (He drew it himself) The pictures weren't pornographic or questionable. To my understanding he just enjoyed drawing them and having paintings. 

 

===

 

While I understand the reasoning for there being a limit on loli and shota I really think laws need to be made clearer to stop innocent people being hit in the cross fire and to clear up confusion, since that is all it seems to be doing.

 

I personally think it is ok given context and age. Anything below 13 and involves rape is no go for me and just wrong. I think if everywhere were to clamp down on loli or shota then lots of fanboys and fangirls would lose their minds. 

 

Here are a few clips from animes which feature shota and loli. They are all legal and have been licensed by MangaUK and MVM so nobody should get into trouble for them. 

 

 

I apologise if I have broken any ToS by posting these and fully accept any and all consequences for doing so. However I felt I needed to make my point about the grey area that is involved with loli and shota. 

 

Anyway that is my two cents on the subject. Sorry if it seems like I was rambling on! 

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Temaelrin

Our Terms of Service clearly states "Minors in a Nude or Sexual Situation" as these are clips without context; they're actually allowed on EcchiDreams. Also it's not hosted by us; so I couldn't give a flying shark. xP I have to say that the under-C cup rule is disgusting; so by that logic you could be nailing a 45 year old lady with a flat chest... But in doing so you're a pedo. Absolutely abhorrent. Geez; regardless of her cup size - I'd HATE to think what they'd think about me (6ft 6") who is getting married to and repeatedly has sex with a female whom is 5ft 2". >_>

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I am honestly surprised that no one has had an opposing opinion. I genuinely thought I was the only sane person left on the planet... Although that is a pretty insane thought right there. xD

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LazarusLuna

Sane people are a rare breed these days!

 

The clips were kinda pushing it which I why I said sorry, but I am glad they are allowed!

 

They would probably get their jimmy's ruffled over the height thing but who knows with them any more! (I heard their government is a lot worse than Cameron!)

 

I think what is worse is if the woman had breast cancer and couldn't afford to have surgery to have her breasts back again. One would then question if someone would be classed as a pedo for having sex with a former breast cancer patient. I mean say they were D+ and they had to have both removed so they were now A... where would that go? All sorts of questions and situations could be raised that just makes the law look stupid.

 

==

 

I think when we really look at the core of the problem it really is people being over protective and taking things way too far. But when you think about it, we were raised with all sorts of stuff and we turned out ok... right? o_o

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Temaelrin
On 29/05/2014 at 22:46, LazarusLuna said:

Sane people are a rare breed these days!

 

The clips were kinda pushing it which I why I said sorry, but I am glad they are allowed!

 

They would probably get their jimmy's ruffled over the height thing but who knows with them any more! (I heard their government is a lot worse than Cameron!)

 

I think what is worse is if the woman had breast cancer and couldn't afford to have surgery to have her breasts back again. One would then question if someone would be classed as a pedo for having sex with a former breast cancer patient. I mean say they were D+ and they had to have both removed so they were now A... where would that go? All sorts of questions and situations could be raised that just makes the law look stupid.

 

==

 

I think when we really look at the core of the problem it really is people being over protective and taking things way too far. But when you think about it, we were raised with all sorts of stuff and we turned out ok... right? o_o

 

I am complete agreement with everything you said. A woman's age cannot be dictated by their breast size; it's no different from having a man's age being dictated by the size of his penis. >_>

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Cazz Cazic

A woman's age cannot be dictated by their breast size; it's no different from having a man's age being dictated by the size of his penis. >_>

Does this mean I get older every time I get a boner? :P

 

 

Lolicon and Shotacon stuff is always pretty asinine to me. Some forms of child photography and nudity in said photography is legal. Lifestyle photos, such as photos of nudist colonies, are normally allowed. Babies and toddlers are often considered too young to even count for this stuff.

 

With lolicon and shotacon it is sometimes protected as part of the right to free speech (the same way most any form of art is protected). 

 

I understand why sites dont allow it (it is illegal in most contries where users are).

 

The idea that it promotes abuse toward children is equivalent to violent TV shows and video games make people do violent things. Which is its own can of worms right there.

 

 

Even better? I saw Dance in the Vampire Bund for sale at multiple Barnes and Nobles in Texas and else where. That guy is likely still on a offenders list.

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Arno

Read the manga series, "Boku Dake Ina Machi"

It touches this topic in a series of cases involving child murders in Japan. Its fiction, but really gets you thinking when cases like this arise. The first suspect and the one usually convicted is the guy who likes cute stuff. I'll admit I love me a bit of absolute adorable., but I ain't gonna obsess over it.

I'm personally against the actual child pornography, one big reason, you never ever mess with innocence.

Secondly, just why? I understand some culture but drawing or conversion are the only things you should get the strive for a trap or a tiny girl.

I could give two flips about loli and shota, they're just drawings, but it takes a sick man or woman to apply it, yes women too, especially school teachers....

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Whoreo

...loli and shota, they're just drawings, but it takes a sick man or woman to apply it, yes women too, especially school teachers....

exactly. don't even get me started on female school teachers. It's absolutely fine for (say) a 41 year old female teacher to have sex with (say) a 14 year old male child, and if it is not okay she'll get a very light sentence for what is essentially statutory rape. you'll get people defending the teacher to the point of being literal apologists for it (If citations are called for, then I will get them. if not - fucking google it. there's plenty of cases) yet if it were the other way around OHLOLNO, that man loses his job, his career, if he gets out of prison again he'll never be touched by any employer ever again.

getting back on topic, I think people are fucking stupid - and I think we all know what type of people I'm talking about here. the type that can't tell the difference between fiction and reality.

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