Eternal Ethos Banned Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 For: @Wolfie and @Neptune Talk Openly. Develop Openly. I feel your community could really stand to gain on having a much quicker and easier to read Code of Conduct as opposed to your very long Terms of Service which is extremely problematic. It's far too long and your definition of harassment is woefully inaccurate and marginalizes what harassment actually means. I'd almost think or say that you did it on purpose! ;) From one developer to another, I implore you to consider updating it something that is open source and free for you to use and is much less for your members to read. Also, and please take this as a ''side suggestion'', consider opening a forum for women only, it's my experience that women need a safe space to communicate, especially on a community like this. I will however, praise EcchiDreams for having equal genders as "Community Administrators" that's awesome!!! well done!!! Quote Through our experiences at the TODO Group, we strongly believe that a code of conduct helps set the ground rules for participation in communities and helps build a culture of respect. We hope sharing this with you will enable you to easily establish a code of conduct for your respective open source community. For more information and to see the CoC for yourselves go to http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/ I realize you're a small, and probably even a new community and you probably invested a lot of time in making your Terms of Service but I really feel it could say a lot about your character if you adopt this as your new Code of Conduct. Be on the right side of history :) Thanks!!!
Auxiliary Staff Neptune Posted August 6, 2015 Auxiliary Staff Posted August 6, 2015 For: @Wolfie and @NeptuneTalk Openly. Develop Openly. I feel your community could really stand to gain on having a much quicker and easier to read Code of Conduct as opposed to your very long Terms of Service which is extremely problematic. It's far too long and your definition of harassment is woefully inaccurate and marginalizes what harassment actually means. I'd almost think or say that you did it on purpose! ;) Our Terms of Service as been carefully created over the years to cover most of the problems we will bound to have on a forum such as this. It serves our purposes very well, and is tailed specifically for our community. The definition of harassment is not inaccurate. We use the LEGAL and Dictionary definition of the word harassment. Not the Pseudo-definition. I had a read of this CoC on this site, and I have to say that I do not feel we require it. For one thing, the harassment covers so many things that it stifles Freedom of Speech, which EcchiDreams is strongly committed to. Another thing, most of the things listed within the examples, are actually covered by other parts of our own ToS without infringing on anyone's basic Rights of speech. Long story short, I do not think this CoC is suitable with our site, and the values we hold. From one developer to another, I implore you to consider updating it something that is open source and free for you to use and is much less for your members to read. Also, and please take this as a ''side suggestion'', consider opening a forum for women only, it's my experience that women need a safe space to communicate, especially on a community like this. I will however, praise EcchiDreams for having equal genders as "Community Administrators" that's awesome!!! well done!!! For more information and to see the CoC for yourselves go to http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/ I realize you're a small, and probably even a new community and you probably invested a lot of time in making your Terms of Service but I really feel it could say a lot about your character if you adopt this as your new Code of Conduct. Be on the right side of history :)Thanks!!!Please do not demean my position as the Community Administrator because of my gender. I got this position through years of hard work and dedication to EcchiDreams. I got this position because I deserved it, through merit, and rightfully so. Not because of my gender. EcchiDreams does not give out staff positions because of ones gender. That is quite discriminatory and sexist. We think that only those who qualify for the position should receive it. Do not ever make the mistake of thinking that I got this staff position through my gender, as that completely demeans me as a person, as well as the years of hard work that I have put into this website.I would have to say that I do not particularly like your side suggestion. For one thing, we do not allow for discrimination on EcchiDreams, no matter what the brush is. If we create a forum for 'women only' then we will discriminate against men. I will not have this; I feel it is unfair. If a forum opens for women, then one needs to be open for men as well. And honestly, once you start doing that, things begin getting out of control. Not to mention, you cannot enforce this (especially as people can put down a fake gender). If someone feels they are being overwhelmed, or pressured into something, then all they need to do, is approach the staff with their problem, who will me more than happy to try and sort it out for them. In conclusion, my answer is NO. I do not know Wolfie's opinion on the matter but I can take a well educated guess; I will leave that for him to answer. If 'being on the right side of history' means to follow that CoC and the ideology that it promotes, then I do not want to be. My policy when it comes to equality is simple. Treat everyone equally, no matter who they are. Your suggestion does not hold those values, in my opinion, and I will not change my mind on this matter. Kind regards,NeptuneCommunity Administrator. 3
Senior Staff SMFoxy Posted August 6, 2015 Senior Staff Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I'm gonna sound like a jerk.I know I'm going to sound like a jerk.Consider this a disclaimer for a most likely jerky post.And yes. I know I wasn't being addressed, but nonetheless:I really hope this is someones idea of a joke.I've been here from the beginning, and have helped craft the terms of service from then to now throughout all previous administrations.I've helped all the previous site admins run and look after this site in one position or another practically since it's inception.The terms of service are always going to be an ongoing project, as we think of things to add, or better wordings to cut down the length while still getting everything across. We use legal/dictionary/accurate definitions in all circumstances.As for a safe space for women, the entirety of EcchiDreams is a 'safe space' for everyone. That is the point of being a tolerant community.A safe space for women only would completely undermine that by being discriminatory against men, which - while I can't speak for every member, or every member of staff - is not something that is acceptable to at least me personally.And as Neptune quite rightly stated, please don't undermine her position by (at least in my opinion it seems like you are) asserting with no proof that her position is afforded due to gender.The position is due to all the hard work and effort that was put into helping not just the Roleplay Section, but EcchiDreams as a whole.TL;DR: In short, I'm in firm agreement with Neptune.NO.That is all.Thank you.SMFoxy Edited August 6, 2015 by SMFoxy 3
Community Administrator Novaer Posted August 6, 2015 Community Administrator Posted August 6, 2015 Hello. I am going to be detailed; yet, I will be blunt, joking, perhaps sarcastic, but absolutely disdainful. EcchiDreams (Or at least it's Community Administrators) do not approve of this. I "feel" your post is extremely patronising and absolutely demeaning to Neptune; who EARNED the responsibilities she has here. Under what you're promoting, if I enforced it (And I need to have a serious stroke or mental defect to even consider it) then you'd be banned straight away and I will explain why later. Our definition of harassment for a start; is the legal definition of the law for the country of which we operate from - The United Kingdom (Specifically the UK). It's really a sad day when I have to quote the establishment on something... But you clearly have no idea what harassment even is, and this is "Problematic". Now in fairness I'm not good a "Legalese" but... I will point out some key bits, like this, because admittedly I don't have that many hours in a day to read all of this crap and understand it myself, again I know that's "Problematic" but I'm not legal expert and nor should any of this be required... We don't operate under US laws, or any other country and nor are we required to - deal with it. Protection from Harassment Act 19971997 CHAPTER 40 An Act to make provision for protecting persons from harassment and similar conduct. [21st March 1997] Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:— England and Wales 1 Prohibition of harassment. A person must not pursue a course of conduct— (a)which amounts to harassment of another, and (b)which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other. For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other. Subsection (1) does not apply to a course of conduct if the person who pursued it shows— (a)that it was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime, (b)that it was pursued under any enactment or rule of law or to comply with any condition or requirement imposed by any person under any enactment, or (c)that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable. 2 Offence of harassment. A person who pursues a course of conduct in breach of section 1 is guilty of an offence. A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both. Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/ Now for some dictionary definitions (And I just know I'm going to get accused of "Appeal to Definition" fallacy but I quite think it rather backs up what the LEGAL definition is, at least for Neptune and myself's country, and the country of which EcchiDreams is currently administrated in. Merriam Webster:[Source: Archive Link | Page Link] Dictionary.com[Source: Archive Link | Page Link] The Free Dictionary (By Farlex)[Source: Archive Link | Page Link] Your Dictionary (Which uses; Your Dictionary, Wiktionary, Websters New World - LEGAL DICTIONARY)[Source: Archive Link | Page Link] I will be referencing this alot. So by that - I don't think it's unreasonable that our Terms of Service states the following: HarassmentDefined as: (Verb) to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute. Evidence Policy: The person being harassed must have repeatedly requested the harasser cease and desist. When a report is made, evidence to that effect will be asked for, to help us build a case. This, in our opinion, is not unreasonable and does not constitute “Victim Blaming”, as any case requires evidence. Continual harassing behaviour directed towards a certain individual or group, with the intent of causing an intimidating, offensive and/or hostile environment on the boards, with or without uses of any kind of threat, is strictly prohibited by law and we will not hesitate to ban the user without warning and assist if the authorities get involved. Users being harassed must bring this up with the staff; we do not allow “Mob Justice” on our forums. Third party claims of harassment may be investigated but without a report from the person subject of the potential harassment it’s unlikely to have any kind of outcome. Excessive false claims of harassment may result in at least a warning; as that in itself is harassment as we’ve defined it. This shouldn’t have to be said, however; using the Services in their Intended Manner (Eg; Followers System, Pokes, etc), does not constitute as harassment, or stalking, institutional or otherwise. So please elaborate your assertion "It's far too long and your definition of harassment is woefully inaccurate and marginalizes what harassment actually means." means exactly? I'm not trying to sound harsh here... It's a serious question. Because the way I see it; we comply with the law as we're aware of it. First I will go through what you've said and pick apart/try to explain what's going on here, and why you're facing heavy resistance from us and have gotten the responses you've gotten. For: @Wolfie and @Neptune You clearly don't know how the mention system works, and that's okay - I am going to happily explain it you. You did not need to mention us in order for us to read it. Both Neptune and I are subscribed (Following) this forum. I read every single thread and post here, and I aim to reply to all of them as quickly and effectively as possible. This probably wasn't necessary, it's a for 'your information' kind of thing. Talk Openly. Develop Openly. Talk Openly? That's fucking ironic; and don't get me wrong Irony makes me laugh - even when the situation isn't appropriate; I got a hell of a giggle out of this one. You will see why; in a little while. Develop Openly? Err... No thanks. For a start Invision Power Suite is what's called 'Proprietary Software' belonging to Invision Power Services. Again; don't get me wrong, I appreciate Open Sourced stuff as much as anyone else - but the EcchiDreams coding I do on top of the various software, modules, plugins, etc... is NOT open source. I even have two bug trackers - one for technical minded peeps (Current and Future Dev Staff) and one for members; because sometimes I post up a lot of technical details about bugs that quite frankly none of the community would even bother looking at, and even if they did I don't want to be responsible for killing them via boredom. So already this shouldn't really apply to us. I feel your community could really stand to gain on having a much quicker and easier to read Code of Conduct as opposed to your very long Terms of Service which is extremely problematic. It's far too long and your definition of harassment is woefully inaccurate and marginalizes what harassment actually means. I'd almost think or say that you did it on purpose! ;) Yes; it was done on purpose, because I was following the Legal Definition. The only problematic thing is this crap you've suggested we should follow. Normally I wouldn't be this passively hostile against a suggestion, or the suggestion maker... But fuck my life - I don't know how else to respond to this ideological bullshit. The Terms of Service is intentionally long winded because this is: An Adult Entertainment Site. (Meaning we have.... *trigger warning* PORN!) We have warnings all over the damn place saying you must be over 18. Therefore we hope that all people here are adults who DON'T need to be treated like children. We wanted to be as clear as possible and precise as possible across our entire service. We make a lot of things explicitly clear, and fair. Also: Fun fact... When I first did this; it was a lot more offensive than this. I was actually advised by other staff members to tone it down, because it was potentially objectionable. I'm not a very good people person. Is featured quite prominently and in complete stark contrast (IE: It's designed to be eye catching) on our homepage. A "Code of Conduct", especially that one, doesn't even compare to the Terms of Service that we operate on and even if it did: It actually directly contradicts our message and who we are. We're not some authoritarian hard ass that forces people to comply, we certainly don't oppress our members either. A lot of us have enough of this in real world in many, many ways, and a lot of us don't want it happening in this community as well. As for our definition of harassment; I've already answered that. From one developer to another, I implore you to consider updating it something that is open source and free for you to use and is much less for your members to read. No. I have severe issues with this; and I do not care if Github uses it. I don't think it's intended for this type of community and I certainly don't think it's applicable to our community at all [Source: Archive Link | Page Link] ... Wait... Is this Poe's Law in Action? I implore YOU to (please) stop pushing you ideology on people. Also, and please take this as a ''side suggestion'', consider opening a forum for women only, it's my experience that women need a safe space to communicate, especially on a community like this. Well this is in direct violation of your "Code of Conduct" and the EcchiDreams "Terms of Service" as I will show you in a moment. This is also not doable; for the same reason we can't accept appeals from people who registered as an under-aged person. The problem is that, we don't actually want to take people's ID's or pictures of them holding a sign with their username... Again, it goes back to what Neptune said - How do you truly know that someone is who they say they are over the internet? Well... You can't. I have no plans on introducing this policy. If you're easily offended - then this site isn't for you (See big red image above). We cannot honour true diversity in age because we cannot allow people who we know to be under 18 to use our service. You see for your Code of Conduct this falls under: Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honor diversity in age, gender, gender identity or expression, culture, ethnicity, language, national origin, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and technical ability. We will not tolerate discrimination based on any of the protected characteristics above, including participants with disabilities. Our Terms of Service: Discriminatory PostingContent that discriminates against a group based on their race, religion, culture, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation and/or sexual preferences isn’t allowed. Topics that have (X only please) or something to that effect will be edited or removed, where X is the group you’re targeting and everyone else is discriminated against. However in the roleplay suite; stating “X Characters Only Please” or “X Roleplayer Skillset Required” is acceptable, where as “X Roleplayers Only Please” is not. For example this is okay: “Advanced Roleplayer Skillset Required” or “Female only Characters Please, as this is a Female College” is fine. “Gay Roleplayers Only” is not. Again these are just examples. And then we come to this comment... I will however, praise EcchiDreams for having equal genders as "Community Administrators" that's awesome!!! well done!!! OH BOY. You sure don't sound in anyway patronising (at worst) or sarcastic (at best). I will have you know that Neptune got this position during our First Administration (Incidentally; a Female, not that that matters) and she worked her way up the ranks. For the first year or so she was a Roleplay Moderator, she worked extremely hard and even invested her own money in getting us a Gallery. At the end of the day what does it matter what Gender we are? It shouldn't matter unless you're a flaming Sexist. Why can't we just be human beings? Why does Gender have to be brought into it? I don't understand the logic and quite frankly I'm not surprised Neptune found this comment to be insulting, demeaning and so on. Also... I'm not trying to tell you your own beliefs (Geez... Last time I did this was with Religious people at my door); but... Two CA's, one Male, one Female. This is "Equal Genders" - yes, to me it is. But to you... Don't you* believe in multiple Genders? Like, way more than two? Wow. You "oppressive shitlord." </joke> If you didn't mean how it's come across - then fine. I'll take you at your word. I don't care what the community staff's Gender, Ethnicity, Race, Colour, Creed, or any of that fucking noise, is. Can they do their job, can they handle responsibilities? If the answer is no; they're not staff. That's it. I don't care about these Identity Politics issues. Seriously... Is this Poe's law in action? * This assertion is made because this is clearly a Social Justice angle, so... I thought Social Justice Cultists believed in more than two Genders. Hey; I might be wrong. Can't say I really cared how people identify themselves, at the end of the day I can keep telling myself and everyone around me for example; that I'm a Big Strong Wolfkin. Sadly... It doesn't make it true. Also... I could very easily say any of the following: No, all our staff are male, Neptune just identifies as female online to make us LOOK progressive. No, all our staff are aliens, Neptune just identifies as a female human online to make us LOOK less than too-progressive. No, all our staff are female, Neptune just identifies as female online because she's the honest one. We're all computer generated bots. I'm a Big Strong Wolfkin. Neptune is a cute Neko. Manni is a fruit ninja warrior. SMFoxy is pink person with a Pikachu on his head and Ardilla is whatever the fuck he feels like. Like a Ditto, but a billion-gazillion times more awesome. OH! And Bi-Sexed! My personal favourite "I identity as a double ended dildo" We're all of the above. Online; anyone can be anyone, again it doesn't make it true. It's called Anonymity, and EcchiDreams supports it. For more information and to see the CoC for yourselves go to http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/ I did. I was horrified. Then I did some digging around and I found something very sneaky. Very dishonest (at worst). Oh yes. This is coming. Queue the "WOLFIE IS A MISOGYNIST!!!!1111!!!!111!!!!" Posts. Spoiler Alert: I'm a Human Rights Advocate. I realize you're a small, and probably even a new community and you probably invested a lot of time in making your Terms of Service but I really feel it could say a lot about your character if you adopt this as your new Code of Conduct. We are indeed a small community. That's what happens when you don't pay for advertising, considering we've never paid for advertising - I'd say we're doing fairly well. Kind of. We're growing slowly, but surely, and we're starting to get active Dreamers and the ones I've spoken to are nice, decent human beings. As for saying a lot about my character... Oh piss off, mate. You don't know me. You have no idea who I am, what I represent, what I do, or anything like that. Want to know how I know? You didn't even read my About Me page which would have given you at least a glimpse of what I am into. I know how I'd judge my character by adopting this... It's not good. I'm not going to question your judgement here, and if I have... I apologise (for that, and that only) this isn't a personal attack, but you have so missed the mark about what EcchiDreams is, or what we do, and why. You so very clearly missed the mark about who we are as the community too. Be on the right side of history :) This is probably the most creepy thing anyone has ever said to me on EcchiDreams, ever. Seriously... I want to call Poe's law and I think I am going to call Poe's law. But this has been really fun for me. --- From this point on "You" does not refer to the Topic Creator --- Unfortunately from what I can tell the Code of Conduct isn't Poe. It's actually a thing. So why do I have such an overt problem with it? Well first off. From what I can tell it was adopted by several notable corporations (Apparently) such as "Microsoft", "Facebook", "Twitter", "Yahoo" and "Google" just to name a few. However it seems that this was back in July (From what I can tell on their Twitter), I haven't spent an awful lot of time researching it so if I am wrong - Please let me know. Tweets: The dates seem to be before July 23rd - and since then the Twitter account hasn't posted since [Source: Archive Link | Page Link] Now you might be asking; So fucking what Wolfie, why is this even fucking relevant? Well... Remember what I said earlier? I did. I was horrified. Then I did some digging around and I found something very sneaky. Very dishonest (at worst). Oh yes. This is coming. Queue the "WOLFIE IS A MISOGYNIST!!!!1111!!!!111!!!!" Posts. Spoiler Alert: I'm a Human Rights Advocate. Well, back then the Code of Conduct looked like this and I don't personally have anywhere near as much of a problem: https://archive.is/chnLDWith this one, however... It now looks like this: https://archive.is/RBcKO And the dishonest part? Both of them are version "1.0" to me this is Dishonest at worst, disingenuous at best. But hey... It could be a complete accident. Why do I have a problem with this? Because despite them both being Version "1.0"; they've had quite significant changes. [Source: Archive Link | Page Link] My main issues? This is clearly not meant for this type of community. It is meant for the Open Source Community. It's great an all that they're getting a Code of Conduct and more power to them, I couldn't really give a flying fuck. I certainly don't think you should be registering to forums and pushing this onto those communities because we're not fucking Open Source Software Communities... Seriously. Learn the difference. But seeing as you brought this to my attention; I will now pick apart what I find abhorrent about this Code of Conduct. Because you've brought this steaming pile of dog shit to our community, and quite frankly I'm laughing my arse off at the inherent stupidity that is about to follow. This code of conduct outlines our expectations for participants within the [COMMUNITY] community, as well as steps to reporting unacceptable behavior. We are committed to providing a welcoming and inspiring community for all and expect our code of conduct to be honored. Anyone who violates this code of conduct may be banned from the community. Wow, bloody hell... So no infractions? No warnings? Straight up (Maybe/Maybe not) instanta-ban? Ouch. I'd sure hate to have a shit ton of files up there only to have the Politically Correct and Perpetually Offended Police for just having the word "Retard" in there; regardless to the fact it could be used in context for example a swearword filter? Where does it end? Do they do this to these words too? If this is the case and I implement this Code of Conduct (As I said earlier half of my brain would have to by missing) then fuck... I'm banned. Perhaps a better phrase for "expect our code of conduct to be honored" would be "expect our code of conduct to be obeyed" as that would follow the next sentence. This is going to start off as a warm up, a bit nitpicky but I'm just going though how we'd have conflicts with this. Our open source community strives to: Be friendly and patient. Well that's nice. So if I am a naturally impatient person I'm banned or at risk of being banned. Admittedly I'm just nitpicking for this one. Being serious here... It's good that one would strive as a community to be friendly and patient. It's something that EcchiDreams shares; we would love our community to be known as friendly and patient. Be welcoming: We strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is not limited to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour, immigration status, social and economic class, educational level, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family status, political belief, religion, and mental and physical ability. Be considerate: Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will affect users and colleagues, and you should take those consequences into account when making decisions. Remember that we’re a world-wide community, so you might not be communicating in someone else’s primary language.Be respectful: Not all of us will agree all the time, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behavior and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It’s important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one.Be careful in the words that we choose: we are a community of professionals, and we conduct ourselves professionally. Be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other participants. Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren’t acceptable.Try to understand why we disagree: Disagreements, both social and technical, happen all the time. It is important that we resolve disagreements and differing views constructively. Remember that we’re different. The strength of our community comes from its diversity, people from a wide range of backgrounds. Different people have different perspectives on issues. Being unable to understand why someone holds a viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere. Instead, focus on helping to resolve issues and learning from mistakes. Awesome. It's a shame you actually stab this one in the face later on. Also... "Gender Identity" when I first read this I thought 'Uh oh... Here we go...' - "We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack." But no... Again more or less they pretty much hit a nail on the head. Honestly it's a nice sentiment... Although "Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others." Isn't that the whole point of Open Source? Again I don't know... EcchiDreams is more/or less on the same track here. We don't accept certain behaviours; we don't ban them or disable their accounts right away but eh... Different sites; different types of communities; different rules. I can get that. Things that wouldn't apply to EcchiDreams: "Be careful in the words that we choose: we are a community of professionals, and we conduct ourselves professionally." - I am far from fucking professional, at least in how I carry myself sometimes. When it comes to the Staff Policy (That is Policy for Staff) I do conduct myself professionally. But speech wise? Fuck that. Sounds like Political Correctness. "Your work will be used by other people..." Er... No. We have actually have a Plagiarism rule. Again - Fine in an Open Source Community (I assume, I don't know, or really care) but here... No. Points I'd like to contest: "Being unable to understand why someone holds a viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong." & "Different people have different perspectives on issues." - Can you tell the Social Justice Cultists that please? K'thx. "It’s important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one." - Yes... It's IMPORTANT to remember that. We'll get to this nugget in a minute. It's all so subjective. "We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack." - Problem is... What constitutes a personal attack with the SJC crowd? Your definition of Harassment is so WAY off the mark, criticising someone over something stupid they've said or done? Well yes actually. Because we all know that a Misogynist to a Social Justice Cultist means "Someone who disagrees with the views of a Feminist (And therefore hates all women)" whereas Misandry "Isn't a real word." (Not quoted from this, they are examples). NOW we get to the meat of it. Where I have the more serious problems and why it conflicts with EcchiDreams, and for added fun my personal gripes with it. Definitions Harassment includes, but is not limited to: Here we go... Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, race, age, regional discrimination, political or religious affiliation Define Offensive? Because you SJC's find everything offensive, don't you? I think you can do these things without "Harassing" but you can indeed do these things whilst you're "Harassing" - You don't have to be harassing someone to be offensive, and you don't have offensive to be harassing someone. They're not mutually exclusive. Offensive "Comments" related to Gender, Sexual Orientation and Race as far as I am aware are indeed crimes. It's called Hate Speech. Although I'm not sure that "Neuro(a)typically" is something covered under the Harassment Law, and making comments without being asked to stop isn't harassment under UK law. Unwelcome comments regarding a person’s lifestyle choices and practices, including those related to food, health, parenting, drugs, and employment Define Unwelcome? Granted making comments about these things aren't nice - but it's not harassment. Not on it's own, anyway. Deliberate misgendering. This includes deadnaming or persistently using a pronoun that does not correctly reflect a person’s gender identity. You must address people by the name they give you when not addressing them by their username or handle Now we're getting to dishing out orders! "Awesome. Well done." Not harassment but nice try. Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “hug” or “backrub”) without consent or after a request to stop Oh for fuck sake. After "A" request to stop? Continual doesn't mean twice. Idiots. (Adjective: forming a sequence in which the same action or event is repeated frequently.) Also... Seriously? Do these textual descriptions trigger people? My fucking my, my... What sensitive, fucking-special little snowflakes. This would seriously fuck our site right over seeing as a large fucking part of this site is for Roleplaying. Granted... I can understand it being harassment if these people are being told (and I mean individually) that you're not happy with it, and they keep doing it. Granted; I wouldn't have pegged Open Source Communities to be plagued with this problem... *hugs* - Do you feel better now? Threats of violence, both physical and psychological Yes. That's not harassment... But it is illegal. I'm not sure what a Threat of Psychological Violence looks like and I'm too tired at this point to Google it. I wonder how many acts of violence threatened over the internet with a "Worldwide" Memberbase are actually ever carried out. Granted - It's not nice. But if physical violence is being threatened then go to the Police/FBI (in the US). Incitement of violence towards any individual, including encouraging a person to commit suicide or to engage in self-harm Sure. If repeated. We already have this anyway, only we don't like inciting violence against groups of people either. Mmm... Seems like a "little site" has a better "Code of Conduct" than a group who's sole purpose was to make a Code of fucking Conduct! OH MY~... Deliberate intimidation Sure. If repeated. I listened and believed that in the UK it comes under the Malicious Communications Act too. Stalking or following Well... That's our Followers System fucked then, isn't it? I believe though this is actually considered harassing behaviour. I'm pretty sure it has to be repeated with the person saying "Stop Stalking/Following Me" repeatedly. But... There we go. Harassing photography or recording, including logging online activity for harassment purposes Well... This is subjective. And assumes Guilty until Proven Innocent. "Including logging online activity for harassment purposes" - Er... EcchiDreams records the Time and Date you made post, when you were last online, who and when a person looked at your profile, does that mean the software is Harassing? Well... I'm guessing not. But seriously how the hell do you prove that someone is doing this shy of actually getting/pointing out the evidence? Is it merely enough to assert that they're doing it? Does it require evidence? What's going on here? Sustained disruption of discussion I'm pretty sure that's just being a disruptive arsehole. It's neither illegal (on it's own) or harassing. Childish and immature; sure. Potentially... But I'm pretty sure that's just being a disruptive arsehole. Unwelcome sexual attention, including gratuitous or off-topic sexual images or behaviour Well that's most of the forums gone then, isn't it and quite a lot of threads too, I'd imagine. Also if this is repeated for the sexual attention - then yes I'd imagine this is Sexual Harassment. The rest though... I'm not too sure. BUT- I completely agree that Unwelcome Sexual Attention, is unwelcome, however... Gratuitous - (done without good reason; uncalled for) (given or done free of charge) Under the first definition our sexual images and 'behaviour' are justified because that's the point of our site. Under the second definition; we are gratuitous because our site is free. Pattern of inappropriate social contact, such as requesting/assuming inappropriate levels of intimacy with others Well that is extremely subjective and nebulous again. What is inappropriate and intimate to one person isn't to another. Also this would probably require us to shut down the Sexual Discussion Forums. Continued one-on-one communication after requests to cease YES! That is harassment! "Awesome~! Well done~!" Deliberate “outing” of any aspect of a person’s identity without their consent except as necessary to protect others from intentional abuse No. That's Doxing. Publication of non-harassing private communication ... Fucking seriously? "non-harassing" How is this in any way harassment? This is why EcchiDreams doesn't have a "Private Message" system. We have an EcchiText System, if someone chooses to make it public... That's their choice. Then we get on to everything that confirmed my initial suspicions. Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”Refusal to explain or debate social justice conceptsCommunicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenialCriticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions First of all. I cannot believe or begin to fathom what is written here. What in the name of the actual fuck? Do you seriously expect me to make this policy on EcchiDreams? I had to re-read this several times and I am still stunned that they're so open and flagrant about it. They prioritise over "Marginalised People's Safety" over "Privileged People's Comfort" how twisted is their world view..? We'll see shortly where this comes from, and why I am an Anti-Feminist (At least Anti-Modern-Day-First-World-Problems-Feminist) and Anti-Social Justice. How about treating everyone equally and fairly, regardless of "Privilege"... How the fuck do you even measure that on-line?! I could claim to be a Alien from outside this galaxy and I'd be the most Minoritised person on the fucking planet, which clearly these people are no longer apart of any-more. How do you quantify it? Look... I get that you Cultists think you're doing good by being so inclusive but you're actively being exclusive too. How is this any different from not acting on complaints regarding people who are black, and before someone replies with the bullshit "Because White People are the dominant blah blah blah..." Perhaps - in the Western World, but say if a White Person moves to Asia, does that mean even there where it's majoritively Asians (I'd imagine) that automatically that person moves from Privileged to Oppressed? You said you're worldwide; and yet... Oh my head... The mental gymnastics you cultists pull... Fuck... I can just about wrap my head around Time Travel... But this fucking bullshit... Ugh... That stroke is coming... Second of all. There is NO such thing as Reverse -isms. Racism is racism, Sexism is Sexism, and as for not dealing with Cisphobia... I'll get to that in a moment. There's a whole cluster fuck of nonsense going on here, let's start pulling this thread out shall we? So what they mean by reverse-ism's like racism and sexism is people who are racist against "White people" and reverse sexism is basically "Males" because "White Men have all the power" apparently. Thirdly... Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts? Oh I bet you won't deal with them, at all, anything that challenges the narrative is the enemy, right?! And "Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions"? So basically this is completely incompatible with this Code of Piss Poor Conduct said earlier. EcchiDreams allows for and encourages the criticism and discussion of ideas, etc., unlike Social Justice that will censor, shame, harass and so on... Lastly... Double Standards Much? "Cisphobia" or as I'd like it coin an invalid term "Reverse-Transphobia" is just as bad to me as being transphobic/being a bigot. Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, race, age, regional discrimination, political or religious affiliation Do you not see the conflict? No-of-course-you-don't... Diversity Statement We encourage everyone to participate and are committed to building a community for all. Although we will fail at times, we seek to treat everyone both as fairly and equally as possible. Whenever a participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to right the wrong. Oh really? But if it involves Whites and/or Males - Fuck it. Perhaps you fail (all the times) because you inherently DON'T treat people fairly or equally. If someone has been offended it's not your fucking job to right the wrong. It's their problem. Not yours. I know you want to feel good about yourselves, but for fuck sake... Oh... And I hate to break it to you... But this "People of Colour" narrative... White is a colour, too. We are all people, human. Fun Fact! Did you know that all humans are the same colour on the inside? Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honor diversity* in age, gender*, gender identity* or expression, culture, ethnicity, language, national origin, political beliefs**, profession, race*, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and technical ability. We will not tolerate discrimination* based on any of the protected characteristics above, including participants with disabilities. * Except for White Males.** Not mentioned here but we'd like to add, except for Right Wing people [[I am libertarian left before we start assuming "My character" again.]] There fixed it for you. You might as well be honest because at this point you're already fucking lying. "based on any of the protected characteristics above, including participants with disabilities." You're not running a fucking zoo, like some kind of Animal/Wildlife preserve. Reporting Issues If you experience or witness unacceptable behavior—or have any other concerns—please report it by contacting us via [CONTACT]. All reports will be handled with discretion. In your report please include: If you witness it and the person involved hasn't reported it... Then is it any of your fucking business?! No. Attribution & Acknowledgements We all stand on the shoulders of giants across many open source communities. We’d like to thank the communities and projects that established code of conducts and diversity statements as our inspiration:Django (https://archive.is/Di7G1)Python (https://archive.is/Tg08Q)Ubuntu (https://archive.is/lbmSg)Contributor Covenant (https://archive.is/8KQ0T)Geek Feminism (https://archive.is/z3MCC)Citizen Code of Conduct (https://archive.is/YVmfv) "Geek Feminism" by the way seems to be where the shit I have the major issues with came from. So there we have it. Conclusive proof, and confirmation that Feminism is about hating men. White men in particular. So you see now Emma Watson, why Feminism has become Synonymous with "Man Hating"? Unrelated Sources [Source 1 (YouTube) | Source 2 (YouTube) | Source 3 (YouTube) | Source 4 (YouTube) | Source 5 (YouTube) | Source 6 (YouTube) | Source 7 (YouTube, Sargon of Akkad) | Source 8 (Archived - Instagram, Green Party USA)] Not satisfied? Or are you (the reader) itching to reply with "They're not True Feminists" (The Not a True Scotsman Fallacy) Alright. Let's take some quotes from these charming women feminists. “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor “To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin “Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone “In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart “Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins (comment in response after three of her male students at university were falsely accused of rape) “All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French “Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer. “The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things.” — Jilly Cooper “Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.” — Sheila Cronin, former leader of NOW “Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice.” — Andrea Dworkin “Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice.” — Ti-Grace Atkinson “Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.” — Catherine MacKinnon “I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.” — Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman [Quoted From: Cultural-Misandry.com] Feminists and Social Justice Warriors are welcome on EcchiDreams, as long as you abide by our Terms of Service. Don't use EcchiDreams to spread your ideological hate, it's not welcome here. I didn't know about any of this today (because of this thread) but apparently, GitHub has chosen to adopt this policy, which is their free choice, of course. Just as it is my free choice to close my account with them, which I have now done. If this hadn't of been pushed on to our community through a suggestion of which I'm sure if I refuse I will face some kind of backlash then I probably would have found out sooner or later, closed my account with them and I would have said nothing more on the subject... But oh~ no. Anyway. I had good fun with this. Looking forward to a response; but I predict one of a few things happening. You'll never come back and never see my post; it's okay. It wasn't for you. Or because I refused to toe the Social Justice Cult line - I will be hounded in some kind of futile attempt to change my stance. If all else fails resort to your big mean words like "Rape Apologist", "Muhsoggyknees", "Rapist", "Transphobe", "Homophobe" (Pansexual by the way. Not ever represented as a letter in LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ-ABC123 community though...), and so on and so forth... Another possibility is that the people responsible for this drek will probably rip our ToS apart to "Correct" it to Social Justice Standards... I really couldn't give a fuck, as I have said in the past. Although I do welcome criticism, if the point is well made, I may end up taking suggestions on board. Replacing our Terms of Service with something that isn't for EcchiDreams, isn't for this kind of community, and so on with this garbage? Yeah... Not going to happen whilst I'm a Community Administrator here. I describe myself as a "Classic Liberal" I guess. I believe quite strongly in equality for all under the law, I believe in merit, unless there's an angle I don't know about - I describe myself as absolutely libertarian. This kind of Authoritarianism doesn't sit well with me. I am not offended, but I cannot possibly begin to understand why Modern Feminism and Social Justice Cultists are taken in any way shape or form seriously. They use words like weapons, and these weapons only have so many uses until people end up not giving a fuck. Their definition of Harassment (much like their definition of Sexism, Rape, Racism, and so on) doesn't connect with how everyone else sees it. Unfortunately this isn't a good road to go down, without wanting to go off topic here... The problem with this is it takes legitimacy away from the real victims of these crimes, and it's these people I feel sorry for the most. Whilst I was angry when I first read the Code of Conduct (Not this topic) I really did enjoy getting my thoughts down on here and as I have already said - if anyone would like to discuss this with me; please feel free to do so (Probably not here because it might be going off topic), but if it's overwhelming I guess I will throw this topic (or split it) into the debate forums. This thread will not be closed, as I am not going to be accused of censorship, something I find absolutely abhorrent in most if not nearly all circumstances. TL;DR: Suggestion Rejected.Reason? Read above. To the Reader: Are you offended? If you feel I violated your fee-fees with this; feel free to report my post - the link can be found at the very top of my post - or click here.
ArdillaVerde93 Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I'm a little late to the party here. Sorry; long night of Saints Row IV. Anyway, wow. Just wow. You've been here for less than a day and you're already,... well, George Takei could put it better than I could, but I can't put videos in my post, so I'll just have to quote him."You are made of stupid.""You, sir(I realize you're actually a girl, but this still applies.), are a douchebag. Yes; that's right. A douchebag."Granted, I kinda skimmed through the posts, which is why I'm not gonna go too in-depth here. Basically, as Wolfie put it, piss off. 4
Whoreo Posted August 7, 2015 Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) As a proud Straight White Male Shitlord (jus' kiddin')...As a fellow human being, I thank the EcchiDreams Staff for taking a public stance. as a member here I do not want to see EcchiDreams becoming... well, that. @Neptune, @SMFoxy, @Wolfie and @ArdillaVerde93 have restored my faith in humanity. thank you. Edited August 7, 2015 by ωнσяєσ 4
Community Administrator Novaer Posted August 7, 2015 Community Administrator Posted August 7, 2015 Not whilst I am the Site Administrator here, and I'm not planning on going anywhere.
Community Administrator Novaer Posted August 8, 2015 Community Administrator Posted August 8, 2015 Disclosure: Unfortunately (because I wanted a dialogue with this member). They've been banned for a severe ToS Violation that the account had done on EcchiDreams, completely unrelated to this topic, other than it was done by the member. Our Staff Policy Agreement prohibits me from speaking about another person's account, so I can't go into too much detail. However; I do want to stress, this had nothing to do with this topic. Which despite what has happened and what has been discovered over the past couple of days, will stay open, if someone wants to chime in on it.
Community Administrator Novaer Posted January 21, 2016 Community Administrator Posted January 21, 2016 Nearly six months later; and no response. I'm going to close this topic as it's not conducive to EcchiDreams. Although I am seriously considering changing the Community Guidelines so it just reads as follows: Don't be a cunt.
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