Minorikawa's Game Club Lounge with Coffee and Booze

[Minorikawa]

I wonder if part of the reason for diverse tastes in the fandom is the age range. Just like Mario, Sonic continues to appeal to kids, but the manner in which they do is going to differ. I feel like Forces' attempt to include the OC was both for the fans that are constantly posting their OC's online, but also to appeal to kids as a way to be involved with Sonic and his adventures (which, honestly, might not work that well since kids usually like to put themselves in the place of the hero or sidekick anyway).

But this is the thing, Pixels you're labeling games like Colors or Generations as alright when I've known plenty of folks that think those are really good Sonic games, both the 3D and 2D segments.

My personal perspective is that they ought to do like Nintendo had started doing: have your 2D games and your 3D games, both. Don't try to make each game cater to your whole audience, let specific games cater to specific cores, and those that like both will buy both. Will it stop the whining? No, because 2D exclusive fans will always insist SEGA should stop wasting time on 3D and make more 2D, and vice versa, and though they might even buy what they don't like, they'll have nothing but complaints. But, ultimately, I think they'd have far better critic and user scores and continue to make some decent money.

[DragonneRPG Deactivated]

Sonic had a rocky career, that's for sure. and I quite enjoyed the movie, you could do worse as far as video game movies are concerned. Also Jim Fucking Carrey. I don't want anyone else ever playing Eggman on the big screen, he just chewed every scene he was in.

Also, people can say what they want about Sonic Boom but it came with a TV series that frankly sounds like it was made by the internet and it's definitely on my watchlist ... with Resident Evil Infinite Darkness and One Piece (oof).

I agree about doing both 2D and 3D games to cover different demographics. Sonic Mania is a proof that there's still a market for 2D Sonic games and that there are passionate devs that are plenty capable of handling those projects.

[Pixel]

It was interesting seeing Sonic being sort of a doofus instead of being way past cool. Yeah Sonic Boom is pretty meta despite the interesting design choices of some of the characters.

So, I mean yeah I pointed out the better sonic games as being better sonic games but with how the franchise has been the last twoish decades, that's sort of high praise. They're aight games as games, I guess you could say they're great as far as Sonic games go, but these days that's a really low bar.

Sure, there's a market for both the 2D and 3D games, absolutely. I, myself, play every single one, just because I love Sonic and have since I was a kid and I want to see the franchise do well, but I've played a lot of sub par Sonic games in that process.

Believe me when I say there's nothing I would love more than a REALLY quality 3D sonic game for the ages. I loved Adventure 1 and 2, but they were very flawed despite how fun they were at their core. Sonic Forces was a good idea but it was... Almost like completing mini games on a map rather than actually playing through an adventure, and it handled very poorly, the amount of times I would have momentum built up and then overshoot or land on and slide off of platforms I needed to make it into was just crazy lol.

I did download the Sonic forces mobile game a few weeks ago and I've played it every day since, there's an Infinite event going on right now. It's fun to play and challenging when you get to the higher tiers, but it's pretty much just multiplayer temple run with a sonic skin.

[Minorikawa]

3 hours ago, Pixels said:

So, I mean yeah I pointed out the better sonic games as being better sonic games but with how the franchise has been the last twoish decades, that's sort of high praise. They're aight games as games, I guess you could say they're great as far as Sonic games go, but these days that's a really low bar.

I wanted to focus on this because it kind of feeds in on what I said earlier about the diversity of the fanbase. Based on what you've wrote since Sonic was brought up, you certainly fall into the "2D is better" camp, but I know plenty of other folks that love the 3D games, typically starting with Adventure but not always, just as much or more. So, for you, those games are "good with an asterisk", but for others there is no low bar. Yeah, everyone knows Sonic '06 was a disaster, but that doesn't mean they like games like Colors or Generations compared to '06, it means they like them for what they are and think they're just as solid.

Again, I can't really say much myself because, if it weren't for Sonic's status as a "gaming icon", I'd just be apathetic to the whole series. I don't care for any of 'em, 2D or 3D, and have played some of the highly acclaimed of both 2D and 3D. I don't get the big deal. But there's a lot of people that love these games, and as a result, it's interesting seeing the discussion.

But I think you're allowing your own preferences to cloud your judgment when you evaluate all the newer games based on what you like best and therefore conclude is best. Which, admittedly, is kind of what we all do, right? Follow our taste and make assertions from there. But perception of reality and reality are two different things, and in this instance, I think "what makes Sonic good" depends on what it is you, personally, fell in love with first.

[Pixel]

56 minutes ago, Minorikawa said:

 But perception of reality and reality are two different things, and in this instance, I think "what makes Sonic good" depends on what it is you, personally, fell in love with first.

That is the most nonsensical logic I've heard in a long time lmfao. 

Are the original Sonic games the standard that the franchise should be held to? Absolutely.

Are the original Sonic games the best Sonic has ever been? Mechanically, maybe. Objectively, probably not.

The 2D platform is a better platform for Sonic and why those titles are consistently more of a success than the 3D games. I don't know why '06 is being brought up so much, it's unanimous in the opinion that that was Sonic's darkest day. They literally released unfinished software and it played like unfinished software. It's a real shame too, I remember how excited people were, the Sonic model was sharp and pretty, the high fidelity environments on the 360/PS3 made everything look great and everyone was hoping that it would in essence be the "Adventure 3" that they've been waiting on.

Nope. 

Sure, a lot of people like the 3D games, I play every single one myself in hopes that we will get the definitive 3D Sonic experience that we've all been waiting on since Sonic hit the 3D world. I'm sure that The Secret Rings is even someone's favorite somewhere. Popularity and quality are not the same thing, and that is the difference between reality and the perception of reality. 

For ME, personally, I don't prefer the 2D games because it's what I fell in love with first. I fell in love with Adventure and Adventure 2 also, and those games weren't exactly A+ tiles either. I prefer the 2D games because everything in them works the way that it needs to and they play very well, which is a luxury majority of the 3D games can not afford. The ones that do get what they're trying to do right, such as Colors, are still just okay games at best AS games, whether Sonic is in it or not.

Take Batman out of the Dark Knight and replace it with die hard charcaters? It's still gonna be as good as movie, because it wasn't great as a Batman movie in the first place. It was just a good movie.

Take Sonic out of an OKAY game where he's the star and replace him with Banjo, Mario or anyone else? It's still gonna be a just okay game.

[Minorikawa]

See, the wrench in your spoke is that, from my perspective, the 2D games aren't really well designed for their purpose either. Be it the first, second, or third game, I feel like they're constantly tripping over themselves almost by choice, like they want to fall down the stairs. So, to me, if the 3D games aren't very good at high-speed platforming, well, that is in the spirit of the original.

But even though I could drop a list of grievances (and not a single one of them would be new, such as Sonic being in the middle of the screen means not enough reaction time or Marble Zone completely shutting the "gotta go fast" down), and claim them to be objective truth, it doesn't stop there being a whole bunch of people claiming no, I'm wrong, those games are great and I just don't get it.

Hence:

Quote

But perception of reality and reality are two different things, and in this instance, I think "what makes Sonic good" depends on what it is you, personally, fell in love with first.

Perhaps I should simply revise it, scratch out the ", fell in love with first" and simplify it down to "you, personally", because to me, personally... I don't get it. I really don't. But, the same could be said for, say, my preference of Metroid over Castlevania, or Bloodborne over Dark Souls, or so on and so forth. And it's not like there aren't a bunch of games out there that have the same debate, regardless of how well they hit the "spirit of" the game or not. Some think 2D Mario is better than 3D, and vice versa. Some prefer 2D Zelda over 3D Zelda, and vice versa. The same even goes for Metroid, and now that Dread has released there's even greater debate on whether that is a good 2D Metroid or not due to its difficulty.

Keep in mind I don't believe in the "everything is subjective" position in order to dismiss any attempt to come to a concrete conclusion on what is and isn't good. I just think, in most conversations, people are constantly confusing personal preference and bias with objective analysis.

If I were to put my feelings forward as objective, then Sonic is bad, period, and it was never very good to begin with. But that's not about to be a very engaging conversation, is it? No, it'll just be a heated argument, and in the end no one wins. I suppose that's where I'm arguing from: it's fine to have a preference, but if you're going to state something to be objective truth, you ought to come prepared with cited sources.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be reliable ones available. From all my Googling, however, it does seem like Wikipedia has the most reliable (though still not up-to-date) info on individual game sales data. And if it is to be believed... well, even Sonic Unleashed outsold Sonic Mania, and that would mean this statement you made:

1 hour ago, Pixels said:

The 2D platform is a better platform for Sonic and why those titles are consistently more of a success than the 3D games.

Then the sales numbers could prove you wrong. The classic titles have tallied up a huge number of sales, yes, in part due to the era in which they released and the manner in which they were sold (the original game was bundled with the system, they effectively invented a holiday for the release of Sonic 2, some retailers bundled it with the console, etc.). If anything, however, there's a declining trend in the series as a whole, regardless of whether the game is 3D or 2D.

Now, perhaps the games are better suited to 2D. That's a possibility! But sales numbers post-Genesis/Master System indicate that there's a lot of people out there that disagree, or simply like Sonic regardless (assuming sales continued to trend).

That all said, SEGA Sammy revealed that Sonic franchise as a whole is still going strong for them, selling 4.4 million units between Mario & Sonic at the Tokyo Olympic Games, Team Sonic Racing, Sonic Mania, and Sonic Generations. This means that, though the only current platform to buy it on is the PC, Generations is still keeping up with newer titles (and if the sales numbers are indicative of the order in which they're selling, then... well, then Sonic at the Olympics and driving in a car are more popular than 2D or 3D platforming, so that goes to show that even sales numbers don't tell the whole story).

Anyway, my only point is that there's fans of all versions of Sonic, which indicates there's something to enjoy in all versions of Sonic, even if you have your own preference, and that SEGA should continue to do both 2D and 3D, as well as those spin-off titles apparently. I mean, all them sports spin-offs have done wonders for Mario.

[Pixel]

No one is supposed to be winning anything, and all Sonic games are bad is how you feel about it, that's how you feel about it, there's not any reason to try to drag things out just for the sake of conversation or to tell someone the way they feel about something is wrong because this and that lmfao. You didn't even really need to comment on Sonic at all other than the fact that you think Sonic is bad so you can't relate.

I don't believe all Sonic games are bad. I do believe a lot of them are bad. I believe few of them are between okay and good. But it's okay if you believe they're all bad, I can at least understand where you're coming from and the gripes you have with it. I CAN'T understand where someone is coming from if they think they're all good, but if they think so, they think so. But if those people haven't played Adventure 2, which basically has legendary status among the fanbase, if they go back and play it I can guarantee they won't have as good of a time as they remember. MAYBE with the exception of the battle modes, where they can have a few drinks and relive a few memories with friends because whatever. I know I do that sometimes with my friends, because we played the hell out of it when we were younger and sometimes it's fun to play again together to remind us that we're still in there despite the directions our adult lives took us. It's still frustrating almost every time because the way it handles REALLY is not very good.

You bringing up preferring Bloodborne to Dark Souls is a big part of what I talking about. Bloodborne was the director of Dark Souls and a new team learning from Dark Souls and the team that developed it and in turn improving upon it's already winning formula, and they made a fantastic game. The Sonic team does not do that when they should. They don't learn from their mistakes, they repeat them over and over, and yeah they sell just because Sonic has such a dedicated fanbase regardless but the problems people have with them are always the same and nothing ever changes.

Meanwhile they basically remade the whole Sonic movie because people hated how he looked so much. Responding to feedback yields positive results.

The Sonic the Hedgehog Twitter is though. That's something I guess.

[DragonneRPG Deactivated]

I don't know where this is all coming from, the 2D Sonic games were great. 2 and 3, at least, just watch Scott the Woz's Sonic videos and you'll see why. Sonic didn't just get popular because of the technological feats they showcased back in the day, they were also fairly competent platformers with neat level design and inventive bosses and enemies. Sales figures are nice but they don't determine a game's quality as a product, only how financially successful they were. An awful game that sells billions of copies is still an awful game. I don't see how objectively bad the first few entreis of the series can be, except maybe the first one because it was the first of the franchise and based on a concept the devs hadn't perfectioned yet. And as I said earlier, being objective requires set standards to compare the game to and those standards can't be subjective notions of quality. Otherwise I could just compare Sonic '06 to my own subjective standards and say that it's objectively good when it is not (Now I can'T really say muhc about '06 because I haven't played it so don't take it as a knowledgeable opinion on the game).

Anyway, good or bad, it's not important. The importance is enjoying it. I've enjoyed plenty of crappy games in the past myself (beating Robocop 3 on Sega Genesis before going to school? Yes). The fact is, Sonic has always struggled ever since 3D came over to console gaming and even some of the earlier 2D titles left to be desired. Even though the quality always seem to be a rollercoaster going from "awful" to "fine", I couldn't imagine not having Sonic pop up from time to time like that old friend you still talk to occasionally, even when he's drunk half the time.

[Pixel]

Please don't play Sonic '06 lmao. Spare yourself.

 

 

[DragonneRPG Deactivated]

Oh, I won't XD. I've seen the AVGN videos on it and I think I've seen another video on it somewhere on Youtube. The game is a disaster, mostly thanks to an updated, more functional version that wasn't properly released.

[Minorikawa]

I think there was an mistranslation or misinterpretation because I wasn't trying to use my own feelings to argue the game was objectively bad, just to say that for all the reasons someone could say 2D is better than 3D or that it's just that good, someone else can come around and say "Nah, man, it has this issue, that issue, that problem" etc.

Granted, I could also dive deep into possible reasons it sold well, but that's still far off the topic of my original intent. So I'm gonna just drop it.

Instead, let us celebrate the fact that Death's Door is now for sale on all platforms, so if you missed out on it for whatever reason, you, too, can now play it.

[Pixel]

Has anyone played Halo Infinite yet? 

I haven't, so I don't know how much it may or may not be an improvement over previous titles.

[DragonneRPG Deactivated]

I still have the Master Chief collection to play XD I finished Reach and played a bit of Combat Evolved, that's about it. I'm in no hurry to play Infinite, considering it doesn't have a solo campaign yet.

[Minorikawa]

I'm waiting for the campaign to launch and will play that. The footage of the multiplayer I've seen certainly looks like "Halo is back", but the singleplayer is tough for me to tell. From what videos I've seen show, they knew they wanted to go for a more open-world Halo, but didn't know how to go about it and therefore took from the Ubisoft playbook, which is the least interesting playbook you can take from since it means following markers and beacons rather than actually exploring the world.

While I'm not overly fond of unnecessary open-world trend-chasing, I do think it could work with Halo. The second level of Combat Evolved is a sort of prototype of such an experience.

Regardless, I have Game Pass, so I'll be finding out in about a week and a half.

[Pixel]

Speaking of Sonic

The collaboration event in Monster Hunter Rise is live and the event quests play City Escape and Live and Learn for the music tracks, and with the Sonic layered armor for the Palico, when you give it the Felvine, it turns into Super Sonic. They both have unique run animations

On top of that, Paramount added an unlisted video to their Sonic playlist. We could be seeing a Sonic 2 trailer in the next few days.

[Minorikawa]

So I know there's a lot of negativity towards Square Enix in this thread, but I ended up caving and snagging Guardians of the Galaxy during the Autumn sale. I felt skeptical after the whole Avengers fiasco, but the game had been getting good buzz and was looking surprisingly ambitious. Still, it was a gamble because I often find games that most press and players get hyped up about to be over-rated.

I'm not very far, only started playing this week, but thus far I am pleasantly surprised. It seems like a combination of different game types without clashing in an awkward manner. Every once in a while it slips into a Telltale style walk-and-talk segment, followed by platforming and exploration, followed by Mass Effect style dialogue choices, and then a... different and interesting combat system that has some flaws, but not because it was put together haphazardly. They're definitely trying something here with the emphasis on teamwork, but there's something about it that keeps it from feeling polished. I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm actually having a surprisingly good time.

Most of all, the worlds and the dialogue are actually surprisingly good. Like, if Avengers was Dollar Store Marvel Movie, then this feels on par with the Marvel movies. Or at least, as on par as a game can get, given the differences between mediums.

I'm not even halfway through so who knows how I'll feel by the end, but I'm honestly really surprised at how enjoyable this game is.

[Minorikawa]

I think I found a new waifu for @Pixel

[Pixel]

Dare I look

[Minorikawa]

You dare

[Pixel]

Oh my god.

[Pixel]

I thought blazblue at first glance because that franchise has god tier waifu power.

There's Jet Set merch on SEGAs online store and it's got me sweating profusely.

[Minorikawa]

It's also Arc System Works, so it's no surprise it'd make you think of Blaz Blue at first glance. It's based off of Dungeon Fighter Online, which is free to play which means part of the draw is looking at sexy designs for female characters. Never played it myself, though, admittedly.

[Pixel]

Oh fuck I think I played that a long ass time ago. The gunslinger. Bang bang bang pull my devil trigger.

[Pixel]

HE'S JUST RAGNA THE BLOODEDGE HOW DID I NOT NOTICE

[Pixel]

Okay so

Predictions on stuff we will see yet to be announced at the VGAs?