Politics Discussion and EcchiDreams

[Novaer]

Community Poll

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We're kind of at a crossroads here on EcchiDreams, and I want the decision going forward - to be something that the whole community has a say in. It is in regards to Political Discussions here on EcchiDreams.

In the past we had a Politics and Debates forum where people could discuss such issues in what we hope would be a calm and civilised manner. However the equivalent on our Discord Server would constantly explode in shit-flinging contests and hysteria, so the options were quietly removed but political discussion was never explicitly banned. 

Politics has become an extremely divisive subject, with people taking 100% of one side or the other, with no room for middle grounds or nuance. You either have to be 100% one side or you're "literally worse than X". This is not healthy, and I bet the majority of people who come here, come here to get away from this. It's toxic.

But people have the right to free speech, and thus it was never banned on EcchiDreams. It was discouraged from public conversation, we just politely asked people to conduct these conversations in private, but again, this was never enforced, as people could post on their statuses and such. We wanted to treat people like adults, in the hope that they'd act like adults, but this has shown, time and time again to not happen and it's creating a toxic environment that frankly no one wants to be apart of.

Some have asked us if it's even worth it at all? Is EcchiDreams really the place to go for substantive political discussion? And so on. Is this something that we should just say "No. If you want to discuss it. Take it to EcchiTexts or find a platform to discuss politics. Keep it off and away from public on this site."

As I said, I want to treat you all like adults. I want the community to have a say in this, which is why I am leaving it in your hands. If you are going to discuss the issue, please keep it civil. 

Poll closes in a month from now (March 7th 2021 @05:30hrs UTC)

[ThatLewdCat]

As much as "freedom of speech" is fun and all... My opinion is this: "There's a time and a place".  

ED is about lewds and having fun.

Politics is not lewd... and definitely far from fun either. Mostly because everyone has their own political views and discussions never stay civil.

ED is not the place for politics. Simple as that. Especially not in our time, when politics surrounds us literally in every piece of other media - websites, tv, movies, tv-shows, games, books, music... Let ED be a safe heaven from it?

 

But that's just my opinion, that's all.

Edited February 7, 2021 by ThatLewdCat

[aLittleCrow]

Well, this kind of is an oxymoron, since you have two statements that contradict each other: EcchiDreams is a Freedom of Speech platform and Politics don't belong on EcchiDreams.

• If you ban Politics from ED, you've mitigated toxicity here, but ED is no longer a Free Speech platform, since, you know, you've banned people from talking about politics.
• If you allow Politics to be talked and discussed on ED, it continues to be a Free Speech platform, but the toxicity remains or maybe even increases in the amount and/or volatility.

Honestly, I'd like to say that politics should be shoved in its own corner of the site and be (more or less) ignored from that point onwards, but that might invite trolls looking to stir shit up and dissuade others (who are actually interested in RPing) from joining, since they've heard that this place can get quite political. And since the losses outweigh the benefits, I didn't choose this option.

The majority's opinion on this (at the moment of me writing this, at least) seems to be of essentially banning Politics from ED. And while the benefits would probably outweigh the losses - lessened toxicity vs ED isn't Free Speech anymore - I can't bring myself from voting for it, since that would essentially get rid of the very basis of ED's existence - a roleplaying platform where you can write about whatever topics you so choose.

While I certainly don't read everything that's posted on ED and I might be a bit afraid of any changes to the existing system, I'd like to keep everything as it is, since it appears to be working well enough as it is. Granted, that might not be the case, but from what I know, less than 5 people like to publicly talk about politics here, and it's rather easy to simply use the ignore function ED conveniently has, or simply skip over the posts where they've decided that others need to know their political opinions.

[Buio Banned]

the most substantial political shift in the recent american economy was spearheaded by reddit users with such illustrious members as Potato_In_my_Ass

literal countries were made in centuries past by peopel at taverns talking amongst themselves about how the system needed to change.

the idea that literally anywhere is a place that 'should be devoid of politics' is quite frankly laughable, as that itself is a political opinion.

There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. Censure (in the personal sense, not talking about legal censureship which is obviously a matter of state interference) of political discussion is little more than championing of the status quo under the veil of centrism.

The very existence of this site makes the political stance that people online should be given a free space in which to engage with whatever kinks strike their fancy, in as much anonymity as fits their personal tastes. One need not travel as far as distant countries to find -many- people who would disagree with that idea.

so ultimately, saying 'no political discussions' will always and ultimately boil down to 'only say things which the established climate does not believe is politically controversial' and will invariably (when people start claiming that some post or other that someone made is offensive and 'political', necessitating site staff to come and evaluate if it is or not and needs to be taken off the site or not) lead to a conservative (in the literal sense of the word) climate in the community.

Such a stance will also, inherently, benefit the most depraved and disgusting among us because reactionary shitheels like the qanon group, neo nazis, red pillers, and the like can always make racist, transphobic, anti-semetic, and whatever other offensibve comments or memes, and then just call it 'jokes' when you call them out on their bullshit (seriously, you don't think it's by accident that places like 4chan became notorious hotbeds for red pillers, right?), while any progressive discussion by its nature will and cannot be draped up as 'edgy' humor just 'looking to trigger SJWs' *again, as if that statement itself isn't political).


so ultimately, it really comes down to if you guys want to establish yourself as a conversation police and see your userbase progressively devolve into a closed off echo chamber whose very form as an 'apolitical area' will practically guarantee a gradual (but by no means necessarily slow) shift towards a more and more extremely rightwing climate.




anyone who wants some resources for where my train of logic comes from, observations made by people smarter and more educated in this field than even I am, is welcome to look at this video (honestly the whole series is amazing, but this one is likely most pertinent to exactly what I am talking about)

 

[Aura]

1 hour ago, Buio said:

the most substantial political shift in the recent american economy was spearheaded by reddit users with such illustrious members as Potato_In_my_Ass

literal countries were made in centuries past by peopel at taverns talking amongst themselves about how the system needed to change.

the idea that literally anywhere is a place that 'should be devoid of politics' is quite frankly laughable, as that itself is a political opinion.

There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. Censure (in the personal sense, not talking about legal censureship which is obviously a matter of state interference) of political discussion is little more than championing of the status quo under the veil of centrism.

The very existence of this site makes the political stance that people online should be given a free space in which to engage with whatever kinks strike their fancy, in as much anonymity as fits their personal tastes. One need not travel as far as distant countries to find -many- people who would disagree with that idea.

so ultimately, saying 'no political discussions' will always and ultimately boil down to 'only say things which the established climate does not believe is politically controversial' and will invariably (when people start claiming that some post or other that someone made is offensive and 'political', necessitating site staff to come and evaluate if it is or not and needs to be taken off the site or not) lead to a conservative (in the literal sense of the word) climate in the community.

Such a stance will also, inherently, benefit the most depraved and disgusting among us because reactionary shitheels like the qanon group, neo nazis, red pillers, and the like can always make racist, transphobic, anti-semetic, and whatever other offensibve comments or memes, and then just call it 'jokes' when you call them out on their bullshit (seriously, you don't think it's by accident that places like 4chan became notorious hotbeds for red pillers, right?), while any progressive discussion by its nature will and cannot be draped up as 'edgy' humor just 'looking to trigger SJWs' *again, as if that statement itself isn't political).


so ultimately, it really comes down to if you guys want to establish yourself as a conversation police and see your userbase progressively devolve into a closed off echo chamber whose very form as an 'apolitical area' will practically guarantee a gradual (but by no means necessarily slow) shift towards a more and more extremely rightwing climate.




anyone who wants some resources for where my train of logic comes from, observations made by people smarter and more educated in this field than even I am, is welcome to look at this video (honestly the whole series is amazing, but this one is likely most pertinent to exactly what I am talking about)

 

There is definitely a well-thought-out argument being made here. To an extent, I do agree. Whether or not we deem something "political" is indeed a political issue in and of itself and the ability to determine what is and isn't political could give an individual a dangerous amount of power over "freedom of speech."

At the end of the day, EcchiDreams is a social community alongside being a roleplay forum and that can't be denied. Banning political speech altogether may be an incredibly difficult, if not impossible, task. I'm not personally super excited about the idea of restricting people's ability to speak on whatever they want, especially considering how highly we value freedom of speech.

At the same time, it seems that most, if not all, of our most disgraceful disruptions have stemmed from political disagreements between individuals who simply refuse to agree to disagree and would rather resort to hurling insults back and forth like petty children until somebody crosses the line of the ToS and we have to step in and become the bad guys. We do not value one side of the political spectrum over the other and, though I would probably consider myself more left-leaning than the rest of the staff here seem to be, I don't think I would describe any member of our staff as anything other than centrist, myself included. Although, I am not speaking on behalf of the rest of the staff and may be ignorant on their actual political views on many subjects. I can assure you, though, I would adamantly combat any perceived bias towards right-leaning content and, really, that's the primary purpose for my position aside from just being another pair of eyes for the staff. 

I suppose the fundamental issue here is that a lot of offensive humor isn't welcome on most sites these days, so the fact that we refuse to take content down based solely on being "offensive" allows people who enjoy this sort of humor to find a home here. Since these users value the ability to thrive with their dark humor, they generally seem to be a lot more careful mindful the rules. Meanwhile, those that are offended by this sort of content feel repulsed and ignored by the staff. They stop caring about the rules because they feel threatened and/or silenced by us, so they resort to various methods to get the justice they feel is not being served. Again, I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else, this is just what I currently understand the issue to be. I don't want to be unfair and simply say that "the most problematic individuals who actually break our ToS have been left-leaning so that's why we appear to be a right-leaning website," because it's very much likely that my reasoning above, or something along those lines, explains exactly why that is. 

It does seem that, so far, most members of ED who have voted agree that politics does not have a place on ED, but you raise a lot of concerning points that will need to be taken into consideration. The truth is, no matter what the rules are, there will always be unpleasant individuals who like to skirt the lines of what is allowed. We can try to refine the rules as much as we want, but without going outright authoritarian, this problem seems to be inevitable. Simply tightening control won't totally fix the issue and may only push us closer to that authoritarian position.

It's definitely not an easy situation, but I can definitely say that politics are not the purpose of this site. I think some degree of moderation and flexibility is needed here in order to prevent situations from getting too far out of hand. I would like to think that we are capable of drawing a line between political content and blatant insults. We have also discussed the idea of leaving certain types of case-by-case, subjective issues up to public vote. Although purely theoretical at the moment, such a system might be able to prevent political bias on disruptive content, but we also need to be wary about allowing things to be too subjective. It's something that would take a lot of consideration.

Thank you for your input as it actually is very insightful for me!

[ThatLewdCat]

6 hours ago, Aura said:

I suppose the fundamental issue here is that a lot of offensive humor isn't welcome on most sites these days

Wanna know why? Because people are tired of politics. It is being shoved down everyone's throats in every single piece of media. Politics and agendas are everywhere, in everything we "consume".

Perhaps it's a good idea for some places to be isolated from this? Maybe ED could be it? A place where people can take a breath of air without politics being shoved down the throat?

[Novaer]

16 hours ago, aLittleCrow said:

The majority's opinion on this (at the moment of me writing this, at least) seems to be of essentially banning Politics from ED. And while the benefits would probably outweigh the losses - lessened toxicity vs ED isn't Free Speech anymore - I can't bring myself from voting for it, since that would essentially get rid of the very basis of ED's existence - a roleplaying platform where you can write about whatever topics you so choose.

I want to clarify a misconception that has probably come about due to my own poor wording.

There is no option on the poll that says "Completely and outright ban all political discussion on EcchiDreams, full stop, period." It's just to keep it out of the public sphere, and take it to your EcchiText boxes, or private conversations. So the option is basically saying;

"Look. There are plenty of places where you can do your political activism (Be that; whatever you political views are). There are plenty of places to post your political memes. This site isn't it. This site is primarily for roleplaying, and a community of roleplayers who want to discuss roleplay things and what the community offers, such as common interests. If you want to talk about real-world politics, or meme about real world politics, there are plenty of other websites out there that let you do that. If you want to talk about those things with other Dreamers, then for the love of everything sane, do it in EcchiTexts. We're tired of seeing the inevitable drama in public."

I should also add that this isn't a referendum, where we will take the votes that people vote for and do that thing. We absolutely might not. It's an attempt to shine a light onto this issue, to start a conversation about it and let everyone to see what people think. We may not change the policy at all for reasons that have been put out already.

16 hours ago, aLittleCrow said:

While I certainly don't read everything that's posted on ED and I might be a bit afraid of any changes to the existing system, I'd like to keep everything as it is, since it appears to be working well enough as it is. Granted, that might not be the case, but from what I know, less than 5 people like to publicly talk about politics here, and it's rather easy to simply use the ignore function ED conveniently has, or simply skip over the posts where they've decided that others need to know their political opinions.

I really wish more people were like this. This was my hope, that people would be mature and adult enough to either pass at it or start a genuinely civil conversation. I figured if you treat adults, like adults, they will behave like adults. 

Clearly; I was seriously naive.

I will say this; from an Admin point of view. The ignore system is frankly ridiculous because it is not consistently applied. Take the activity feed for example - all posts wherever you're ignoring the person or not, will appear warts and all. We can't do anything about this, because this seems to be a limitation of Invision Power Suite, the software that this community runs on. Since 2018, I have been asking IPS to fix this and address the issue, but to no-avail. Come 2021, I've given up asking. 

9 hours ago, Buio said:

so ultimately, saying 'no political discussions' will always and ultimately boil down to 'only say things which the established climate does not believe is politically controversial' and will invariably (when people start claiming that some post or other that someone made is offensive and 'political', necessitating site staff to come and evaluate if it is or not and needs to be taken off the site or not) lead to a conservative (in the literal sense of the word) climate in the community.

The decision wouldn't come because we want to control political discussion one way or another, and I think this viewpoint is absolutely uncharitable. If I am interpreting what you're saying correctly, of course.

After speaking to many people on this site, the overwhelming majority of them are sick and tired of having politics from one group or another rammed down their throats. Where if you don't agree with one side on one seemingly inconsequential issue you're 100% one side or another, or you're an absolutely "Immoral person" that should be shamed publicly - and often disruptively, which is why a lot of people have the viewpoint that they do. 

You are right, if I am thinking this correctly, in the thought of: Define what is political? Because honestly, I don't know and I doubt you do as well. Not everything is political, but a lot of it is by varying shades of gray -- in my opinion.

9 hours ago, Buio said:

Such a stance will also, inherently, benefit the most depraved and disgusting among us because reactionary shitheels like the qanon group, neo nazis, red pillers, and the like can always make racist, transphobic, anti-semetic, and whatever other offensibve comments or memes, and then just call it 'jokes' when you call them out on their bullshit (seriously, you don't think it's by accident that places like 4chan became notorious hotbeds for red pillers, right?), while any progressive discussion by its nature will and cannot be draped up as 'edgy' humor just 'looking to trigger SJWs' *again, as if that statement itself isn't political).

But the thing is, sometimes jokes are just jokes. You can't possibly know the true intentions of posting those jokes. Sometimes, to some people, the extreme absurdity of that joke is what makes it funny. Sometimes the disconnect between reality and the joke is what makes it funny. Sometimes the truthfulness in a joke is what makes it funny. Sometimes the irony in the joke is what makes it funny. Sometimes taking something detestable and turning it into a joke, is not a joke at "Hurr. Hurr. Hurr. Racism is funny!" It's to mock racists and racism itself. It's all so very subjective. What you find funny, what I find funny, what any random given person finds funny is going to be different. Hell, even if two people find something funny, it could be funny to them in very different ways, and likewise what things people don't find funny could be unfunny in different ways. Sure; you and I might not like some of these jokes and could correctly attribute any one of those labels to them, but at the end of the day, they're just jokes. That's not even getting into a joke that is funny to you today, might not be funny to you next week under different context, and that's not even getting into personal "In Jokes" amongst friends. 

This is not a total disagreement with your statement however; you're right in that some times these jokes aren't jokes, but it's a way of dismissing or even tapering criticism whilst attempting to look reasonable, it also can be used to test the waters - as it were - and put out a completely detestable idea under the guise of a 'Joke' or as a way of 'Triggering the X' as it were or even plays on people who try to not see the bad in everyone and everything that they do - exploiting their good nature. But a lot of people across the political spectrum practice this - not just the "Alt-Right" at least from my perspective.

For example from the video you posted: "This is Gabe. He likes Video Games, Sci-Fi, Comic Books, Starwars and Anime. White Guy Shit." I assume that this is "Just a Joke^®" But it could be seen by some as a racist statement passed off as a joke, or a racist joke that isn't serious, of course. Constantly jumping to "Things that I don't like aren't jokes, even if the person that posted them says that they are." Just goes to prove the mentality of what people (Including me) are saying. If you're not 100% one way, you're the other. The Universe isn't perfect, and humans are far from it too. Yes, even me.  

But an interesting question; what stops someone from creating an "Alt-Right" in the form of a roleplay? Would that "benefit the most depraved and disgusting", " reactionary shitheels like the qanon group, neo nazis, red pillers, and the like can always make racist, transphobic, anti-semetic, and whatever other offensive comments or memes, and then just call it," Roleplaying "when you call them out on their bullshit"?

I mean what stops someone from creating any form of roleplay with politics, I guess? Or, I guess, a political club?

9 hours ago, Buio said:

so ultimately, it really comes down to if you guys want to establish yourself as a conversation police and see your userbase progressively devolve into a closed off echo chamber whose very form as an 'apolitical area' will practically guarantee a gradual (but by no means necessarily slow) shift towards a more and more extremely rightwing climate.

I have a couple questions - and they're not "GOTCHA!" questions; but genuine questions. 

• Please correct me if I am wrong; but EcchiDreams isn't the only site you go on, is it?
• How would it be an echo chamber when all we want to do is roleplay, or maybe talk about video games, sex, post creative writings and art, surrounded by the theme of Anime, Hentai, Manga? People don't want to see overtly political stuff from any side of spectrum. 

---

This isn't aimed at anyone, hence the dividing line. 

What I'm getting sick and tired with, is that those who say: "If you don't remove X, this proves that you're Y and Z." Like somehow the content of what people post on here is 100% fully endorsed by the staff, when it can't possibly be, or 100% fully endorsed by the entire community as a whole, which is just stupid. Some people want Section 15 to only apply to their ideas, or only apply to them, and everyone else doesn't have that same right. The idea of Section 15 was simple; 

Quote

Freedom of Speech is a core principle of what EcchiDreams believes in, it’s the freedom to make a fool of yourself, and it’s the freedom for others to tell you you’re being a fool, in an open marketplace of ideas.

I suppose it's also the freedom to criticise foolish ideas too. This never came out of malice, it didn't come from a bad place, and was never intended (and has never been used) to silence one side over another. But for example if someone started advocating "Death to X", "Kill all Y" and "We should exterminate Z." or "I will find where you live and I will X you." and so on, then this is seen as "Violating their Universal Rights" and is also illegal. We remove these, as rare as they are - memes or not. It doesn't matter what group of people you're advocating it towards, it's not allowed under paragraph 1 of the same section.

But at the same time just because we don't remove something that someone deems as "Racist" doesn't mean we are in fact racists giving them cover. We put it to the Terms of Service, and if it doesn't violate it, then it stays and we let people say - if they want - that these ideas are abhorrent. Censorship only drives bad ideas underground, by allowing these bad ideas to come to surface, they can face the sunlight of public scrutiny where the ideas can be disinfected. 

Personally: I am fed up of people want me of all people to take sides in the culture war. I have my own political opinions, everyone does. Why am I not entitled to them? Why can't we live and let live? Sure if someone is saying something you disagree with it, then fine, but to hound that person into accepting your ideology completely is no different to me than the crusades of old, where you had to conform to religions. This is what Politics is looking more and more like to me nowadays. Religion that has been replaced, mostly by vapid and meaningless identity politics - on the far left and the far right - that is praised just as a zealously, that leaves us feeling more empty, and more disconnected from each other, with no room for even empathy to bridge those gaps. The last year or so has made me see that more than ever before. Again, I'm not perfect myself. I don't claim to be. 

[Buio Banned]

35 minutes ago, Novaer said:

I have a couple questions - and they're not "GOTCHA!" questions; but genuine questions. 

• Please correct me if I am wrong; but EcchiDreams isn't the only site you go on, is it?
• How would it be an echo chamber when all we want to do is roleplay, or maybe talk about video games, sex, post creative writings and art, surrounded by the theme of Anime, Hentai, Manga? People don't want to see overtly political stuff from any side of spectrum. 

To the first question: it certainly isn't, I hardly know anyone who only frequents one or even a handful of sites these days (not that such folk do not exist in a populace of billions, I just never encountered one myself). However if the next question you have in mind is "so then why ecchi as your platform for discussion" then my answer to that would be "because since politics by their definition as the views by which our society is constructed affect every part of our lives, and because political shifts through decentralized grassroots movements are more powerful now than ever, it is any societal minded individual's priority to leave no arena for discussion as a vacuum."

 

As for the second question, well the answer essentially lies in most of my previous reasoning. Politics is a fundamentally unavoidable concept unless one lives in total hermitage, both physically and digitally. By that fact, when one declares a space as apolitical the result simply becomes that the only kind of political messaging or iconography that becomes acceptable (again, with the understanding that no publicly made statement or presentation can be honestly claimed to be free of political stance) is the kind that doesn't disturb the waters. That in its inherent nature creates an echo chamber over time of what is and isn't acceptable discussion (and eventually what is socially acceptable thought). This is because the only way to prevent echo chambers from forming is to be open to disruptive messaging, even if only to refine the way one argues against a stance they disagree with.

 

As for folk who do not wish to engage with such discussions, little crow has already mentioned how easy it is to simply scroll past discussions that do not interest you, and otherwise block people who repeatedly make the kinds of posts you do not want to engage with one way or another.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Buio

[Novaer]

Hey; thanks @Buio for answering those questions. Obviously I knew the answer to the first question; and whilst it wasn't an "GOTCHA!" Your answer to the question I was going to hypothetically ask next was pretty much what I was looking for, to understand your point of view. If I agree with it or not, is irrelevant for this topic. As for the second question; I'm not sure if I can agree or disagree with it, as it seems more like a personal perception to me. When I picture it in my head and perhaps it's naive, but I'm thinking for example for the video game: Phasmophobia. A conversation that revolves around talking about the ghost, the best methods of collecting evidence about that ghost and the game mechanics, isn't something that is political - to me. Granted there is lots of room where people can agree and disagree, for sure. But again this wouldn't be politics to me, and is not what I'm referring to. But then this goes back to a previous point that was essentially "Define: Politics" because everyone is probably going to have a radically different definition. So from what perspective; I can at least understand where you're coming from.

Sidenote: I'm half way through the linked video, and I'm sorry to say but the methods that are described can be said exactly the same for the far-left, and perhaps other radical groups - like cults. Same tactics, just with different themes and subject matter, and I certainly wouldn't agree that some of it is as binary as the guy describes. Am I saying that in my opinion he's completely wrong? Absolutely not. I am not a political commentator or analyst, nor did I study political theory, I am a layman, a guy who sees it from the "Normie" perspective, perhaps. But this is perhaps veering a little off topic.

But thanks for sharing your view points. The more information there is that is helpful for all sides of the argument, the better it is for what I hope for and that's for other people can see it and help them make up their own informed decisions.

[Buio Banned]

9 minutes ago, Novaer said:

Phasmophobia. A conversation that revolves around talking about the ghost, the best methods of collecting evidence about that ghost and the game mechanics, isn't something that is political - to me.

Just to play devil's advocate on this one, it's entirely understandable why such a discussion may not feel inherently political, but such a discussion would require a social agreement with the participants (and potential audience) that A- video games are a worthwhile endeavour and not some brain rotting exercise that should be restricted if not outright banned, B- horror games should be permissible and that video games are not, as the title of 'game' would suggest, a vehicle created for the pure and benign entertainment of its consumers and that anything more offensive than super Mario has no place being produced let alone talked about, C- that video games are not a child's pastime and that anyone if adult age should be shamed for playing and discussing them, and D- that the presence of ghostly apparitions and the like in this specific title is not an endorsement of satanism and that even if horror games are allowed, that the moral and religious integrity if its consumers needs to be legally prprotected for fear that they will be led to violent and satanic rituals otherwise.

I am sure I could probably think of a few more points of contention if I just raked my brain for the dumbest arguments I have ever heard made against video gaming, but my ultimate point is that all of these topics are sincerely held political beliefs I have heard expressed publicly by certain folk in the western and english speaking world.

It is of course my personal stance that all of those objections are demonstrably false, but that has not prevented them all from being the topic of discussion.

In stating that everything is political, I am also not saying that all actions and all topics are equally politically controversial or divisive. There are certainly several things one can do or say with relatively minuscule probability of encountering political or social opposition on the basis of that action. 

My point rather is that with politics forming a spectrum that covers pretty much all human culture and history, trying to limit 'political' discussion will always result in trying to set a hard line on what is and is not an acceptably low rating of political on a given topic, trying to divide the spectrum into separate categories, which will always result in a messy and biased situation when trying to find the exact point on which to lay down that dividing line.

 

[Alexander Bodide]

My personal feeling is that I'd rather not see any political activism or arguments around here, no matter what side it comes from. And I simply cannot relate to whatever thought process would drive a person to actively try to bring politics to a place like EcchiDreams.

However, I don't think it's good to ban something simply because it makes me uncomfortable to see it. There's all kinds of roleplays and kinks that are out in the open here that a lot of people don't wish to see, but I believe they should just learn to keep on scrolling and not pay it any mind. Basically, I don't want to see us go down a slippery slope where, for example, you can no longer do a rape-themed RP in public here because it might make someone uncomfortable.

HOWEVER...in the uh...current political climate, things get heated fast and you can't count on people to behave themselves. And I don't think it's fair to ask the staff to facilitate and moderate volatile political discussion when it's so far removed from the purpose of the site. That's time and energy better spent on making this place the best erotic roleplaying site it can be.

So...yeah, my thoughts aren't really conclusive, but there they are. I skimmed over most of the replies, so apologies if I'm repeating points that were already made.

[Aura]

4 minutes ago, Alexander Bodide said:

My personal feeling is that I'd rather not see any political activism or arguments around here, no matter what side it comes from. And I simply cannot relate to whatever thought process would drive a person to actively try to bring politics to a place like EcchiDreams.

However, I don't think it's good to ban something simply because it makes me uncomfortable to see it. There's all kinds of roleplays and kinks that are out in the open here that a lot of people don't wish to see, but I believe they should just learn to keep on scrolling and not pay it any mind. Basically, I don't want to see us go down a slippery slope where, for example, you can no longer do a rape-themed RP in public here because it might make someone uncomfortable.

HOWEVER...in the uh...current political climate, things get heated fast and you can't count on people to behave themselves. And I don't think it's fair to ask the staff to facilitate and moderate volatile political discussion when it's so far removed from the purpose of the site. That's time and energy better spent on making this place the best erotic roleplaying site it can be.

So...yeah, my thoughts aren't really conclusive, but there they are. I skimmed over most of the replies, so apologies if I'm repeating points that were already made.

I can definitely say that, as far as our rulings are concerned, roleplay is roleplay. If somebody is bothered by what other people are playing, it's really not our problem. They can keep their nose out of other users' business. I don't see EcchiDreams going in that direction anytime this decade.

[Alexander Bodide]

7 minutes ago, Aura said:

I can definitely say that, as far as our rulings are concerned, roleplay is roleplay. If somebody is bothered by what other people are playing, it's really not our problem. They can keep their nose out of other users' business. I don't see EcchiDreams going in that direction anytime this decade.

As long as this part always remains the same, I don't see any practical downside to removing political talk from the public eye.

[JennyDK]

I know I might be "late to the party", but I do want to just throw in my quick thoughts.

I personally don't think that politics have really been discussed much in my time here and I doubt there is a huge need for a forum for this. Most I know here keep that stuff to private conversation and thus I don't really see why anything needs to change.

The very few political status updates I have seen pretty much stem from ONE user and I simply avoid it: thus it doesn't seem like an actual issue on the big scale from my perspective.

Sadly, some people had a hard time separating dumb shitpost images from actual political statements. I think 98% of people on this site are able to tell which is which, especially when you make it very clear what sort of content it is.

[Elena Ichinomiya]

Let me say one thing : Politic topic is like food on the feast party; not everyone come and get the same cake. People would agree and they get along fine. On the other hand, the one who don't agree would shake their head, frown, and judge the poster character to the point they would fear food poisoning (toxicity) coming from the poster should they voice their disagreement, leading to uncomfortable conversation or RP alike with the said poster. I mean sure we all free to bitch around since this community support freedom of speech. However just like human patience, even freedom has its limit. And ED form of limitation is politic topic which is normal for every place has their up and down.

In my point of view, every forum thread we have at the moment, while it sometime doesn't have anything to do as RP material (like gadget topic for example), it would still held its value who mostly harmless as place to share experience. However i find it hard to see if politic would be count as anything let alone hobby especially in this forum to which i question: what value this topic had in this community? Here's the value i got from each forum...

• Creative Corner can be great place to share creativity or tinker an idea for RP
• Anime and manga is basically most people interest. Even without a poll, someone would suggest it anyway. hur! hur!
• Gadget Geeks give space to anyone who want to show their invention/idea or sharing what they know of how-to-use aka review of new stuff
• Sex and relationship might filled with people venting their dirty desire but its just that, personal rant and question without use of fire. Guess pervert mind is indeed a honest and open minded people in the world.
• Video Games also has similar value like Anime & Manga. And you never run out what to talk about when it come to gaming
• Forum Games has variation of value to keep them afloat and relevant as it also works to keep the dreamer to be active a bit longer
• Personal Stories is a place of good source for sharing laugh and tears 
• Random chit-chat held their value for chatterbox dreamer

If we talk about gadget, we talk about that gadget. When we talk about video games, we talk about the games or the dev. When we talk on forum game, we stick to the game and do our best sticking out with our answer. When we read personal stories, we get to experience about life in someone else shoes. When we talk about anime, its always desu desu yo! But politic, we talk about people and their way of life, questioning them, and most common, frown at their way of life, judging too quick with BS theory. There's too much sensitive stuff when it come to politic and while i don't like to say my impression out loud like this...i dare say most of us (me included) are bad for keeping things civil about sensitive topic.

Compare those list of existing thread to politic, i can't find way to get its value other than someone accidently speaking someone agenda and spread the plague without knowing what they even talking about or aware what they said. It also didn't make me want to stay on ED a bit longer either due to how heavy the atmosphere is around the said thread. Most people who talk in politic thread IMO, is mostly someone who got triggered by the news they saw on TV or read on bloody social media and start blasting; it happen. They share their theory which is fine at first but get the rage when someone pointing them out which is bad, beating the purpose of freedom of speech and question "The right not to be offended", harming themselves in the process. And then there's a case where this A person talk about country where B person lives as if they know what's going on which is ridiculous since they don't even bother to ask but instead just pointing out like a Mr/Ms. Know-every-crap. This one is what get under people skin mostly and this is not good.

If politic thread is making a return, my only wish is every dreamer to talk about politic topic rationally and keeping the conversation about the said topic instead turning it into "B person is wrong because they don't agree with me, fuck you and your president/queen/sultan/chieftain/mama/papa/dogs!". No i'm not kidding, how many politic conversation behind keyboard turn into splashing glass of water to someone face? Dreamers should consider this because the thrive of forum isn't lies solely on admin watch but how we all use it. No matter how well tended the forum politic is, its a matter of how dreamer tend their topic. I saw how real politician arguing and while they do heating up, they point what's wrong on each other point to find resolution and shake hands at the end. Meanwhile, us people on internet who mostly non-politician, grow balls because they're behind keyboard and no camera watching their ugly nose, tend to get derailed on their own topic and it get personal instead reaching the point of resolution. Eyeing each other wrong way is not exactly great feeling and its ridiculous to hate each other from that, especially in a forum where everyone love to toss salad to each other.

While i sounds like against politic thread existence, i assure you i'm not. I'm neutral on this poll. If everyone don't want this thread, i hope they don't take ED wrong way because like the admin said, we can still talk about politic in specific way. Sure it won't get much spotlight but last thing you want is trouble from bunch of strangers on internet. If everyone want those thread to exist (by miracle since the most poll said no), please for crap sake, keep the conversation focus solely on the topic instead a person who argue with you!

TL;DR, I doubt people here would find a good use of said forum other than repeating what they saw on the news and turn it into text and act all saint about it. Or simply blinded in rage because someone disagree with them. I don't hate those who eager to see this forum resurface; i just doubt if they even use it as civil as we all wanted...

[Mr.X]

TBH, I will say what I just vote now, but yeah... After I re read everything and see the things here, I wish I could change my opinion from "Yes, we should bring back the Politics Forum, to contain it all, and make it clear that - that is the only place where it can be discussed." to "Other", but if I need to stay solid on my opinion, yeah the easiest thing to do which became the middle bridge of "Politics" issue in this server AND "Ecchidreams SUPPORT the FREE SPEECH" is by putting one specific place WHERE Politics should be talk about. And yeah, my opinion is not as mattered as anyone else's here since I am those who really came here like a casual RPer and someone who does his comments, but again, yeah, I am just putting myself in the middle of this "Anti Politics in ED" and "Pro Politics in ED". And please, note that CAPPED WORDS such as the word before DOES NOT represent ANGER, but to tell you guys which part is IMPORTANT.

The pros is, ED is SUPPORTING the FREE SPEECH, and Politics are no limit from it, especially if we talk about how Western World speaks about their freedom, which is the "Limitless" Freedom with almost to no responsibility. So Politics is easily one of them which is being able one of the topics in the Ecchidreams that WE should have been ABLE to talk about since DAY 1. Especially if we want to talk some issues like, Uzaki-chan issue, Sakimi-chan issue, or the infamous Tifa Lockhart "Remake" issue. If we want to take the most relevant right now is like the issue of how the "fans"(Those who only watch KnY/BnHA/Mainstream Animes and those who only lives in TikTok and Twitter(yeah, I mean those guys)) treat Attack on Titan Final Season. Those are the example of "Political" issue but not too political and still there is a degree of non-politicalness. But there is some kind of politics inside of it, right? But, the political free speech freedom is also allowing us to have a talk about a certain people and real politics in real world, right? But, this "Limitless Freedom" that we talk about, all came with CONSEQUENCES, such as Toxicity and Hate Speech, which we all know Ecchidreams is not the place of those things. So, we do NEED some type of limit on our Freedom of Speech right?

But yeah, if I WERE the admin(but I ain't, I do in fact have some experience regarding being an admin of a group or something like that also being someone in charge in organization(yes, I am website coordinator ), I will put ONE specific rule to talk about POLITICS, make sure you don't SWEAR, Make HOAXES, SPREADING HATE, or SAYING TOO MANY BAD WORDS when it comes to talk about politics. And, no, no hate speech is allowed even talk about politics, it should be a civil talk of politics. I mean, we can put it but with some rules to make sure the these "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" thing is not misused like how the Eastern World sees their freedom, which is the "Freedom with Responsibility". Yes, in this case, you can speak about your opinion but make sure you don't spread hate speech and hoaxes here and there, like some other people will do(and I don't mean it was the person here, never ever I did mention about it). We all know that we do in fact have DISLIKE towards FEW certain someone in the politics world. Such as me to my country's People's Council who IMO loves to do corruption like there is no tomorrow(Yes, this is a FACT, but I only USE this for EXAMPLE, ok? if not, I will delete the whole sentence, ok?).

But in the OTHER HAND, if I am siding with the Anti Politics in ED, I would say no to Politics because of few significant factors. Such as, when you want to talk about something to someone who YOU DON'T KNOW, you will rather to AVOID POLITICS being one of them, I remember this in my college lesson back then, I think it is Communication Ethics. You won't want to talk about something that is political when it comes to mannerism or something like that to someone WHO YOU DON'T KNOW. Like WHY WOULD WE talk about Trump and Biden to SOMEONE who WE DON'T KNOW? That is the most relevant western example IIRC. Again, politics tend to bring DISCOMFORT with one to another, and sometimes it lead to a large demonstration or riots, and sometimes talking about SOMEONE in the POLITICAL WORLD. 

Also, Politics is WELL KNOWN being a VERY TOXIC topic from day 1, seeing how many Twitter SJWs cry all day for something that DOESN'T AFFECT THEIR LIVES. There are already a bunch of cases right now since 2017-2018 ish or even longer than that, Politics WAS being one of the most civil topic to talk when I was in the highschool, and I talk to my best friend and some people who I familiar with a lot back then. But, right now, it ain't as civil as it was, seeing how many people do talk in twitter and such. I don't need to put an example about one of them, but WE all, in fact, DO KNOW HOW politics is done. Some POLITICAL THINGS is DONE with HATE SPEECH and HOAXES which ED doesn't SUPPORT from DAY 1. Even my country is the heaven for it, iirc.

Remember the few last paragraphs where I speak HATE? Ecchidreams is kind of place where it is so RELAXING to the point maybe we CAN FORGET something as simple as being civil when TALKING about POLITICS. And then we could let our hate in the ED because of this.  Regarding to these reason, I can be someone who will actually say NO to POLITICS in ED. I am also one of the few witness of the ED Discord Politics incident back then, and even it happens after I think in the middle or done talking about the politics of my country(which some know that I called it as Wkwkland aka Indonesia, with Wkwklander as the change of "Indonesian", so if I say I am Wkwklander, don't be shocked, it is my thing). Also, "For someone, IT can be NOT OFFENSIVE , but to others, IT CAN BE." and I refer IT as Political talks or the TOPIC, incl Political Memes. 

The other reason is, yes, THERE IS INDEED FREEDOM BUT THERE IS ALSO LIMIT AND RESPONSIBILITY UPON THAT SAID FREEDOM, never forget that "Great Power comes with Great Responsibility" from Spiderman. It was one word from Uncle Ben, but it was one of the most powerful words that we hear and remember from then to now. Being that, I think IT IS OK to not to PUT POLITICS in ED because of this word alone. Freedom needs the responsibilities to have to be get, and I learn it in some ways of my life, I am indeed a free person but I learn how to handle my freedom so it doesn't hurt others in some ways, and some are HARD WAY. So yeah, IF I can put my words here, this paragraph represent it the most. 

My words may have many flaws inside of it and not as perfect as the others, so yeah, my opinion is largely skippable in this case. I am sorry IF this comment is kind of disturbing for few of you guys, or maybe some of you guys won't accept me because of this opinion, yeah. I am do AWARE of the consequence of saying my opinions here, and PLEASE NOTE that I am in the MIDDLE POSITION regardless of what I was vote for. Thank you for reading my comment here and again, I am sorry if this is disturbing some of you guys, and let me quote few people's words in here. 

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As I said, I want to treat you all like adults. I want the community to have a say in this, which is why I am leaving it in your hands. If you are going to discuss the issue, please keep it civil.

-Tema

 

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I suppose the fundamental issue here is that a lot of offensive humor isn't welcome on most sites these days, so the fact that we refuse to take content down based solely on being "offensive" allows people who enjoy this sort of humor to find a home here. Since these users value the ability to thrive with their dark humor, they generally seem to be a lot more careful mindful the rules. Meanwhile, those that are offended by this sort of content feel repulsed and ignored by the staff. They stop caring about the rules because they feel threatened and/or silenced by us, so they resort to various methods to get the justice they feel is not being served. Again, I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else, this is just what I currently understand the issue to be. I don't want to be unfair and simply say that "the most problematic individuals who actually break our ToS have been left-leaning so that's why we appear to be a right-leaning website," because it's very much likely that my reasoning above, or something along those lines, explains exactly why that is. 

-Aura

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Such a stance will also, inherently, benefit the most depraved and disgusting among us because reactionary shitheels like the qanon group, neo nazis, red pillers, and the like can always make racist, transphobic, anti-semetic, and whatever other offensibve comments or memes, and then just call it 'jokes' when you call them out on their bullshit (seriously, you don't think it's by accident that places like 4chan became notorious hotbeds for red pillers, right?), while any progressive discussion by its nature will and cannot be draped up as 'edgy' humor just 'looking to trigger SJWs' *again, as if that statement itself isn't political).

-Buio

 

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Let me say one thing : Politic topic is like food on the feast party; not everyone come and get the same cake. People would agree and they get along fine. On the other hand, the one who don't agree would shake their head, frown, and judge the poster character to the point they would fear food poisoning (toxicity) coming from the poster should they voice their disagreement, leading to uncomfortable conversation or RP alike with the said poster. I mean sure we all free to bitch around since this community support freedom of speech. However just like human patience, even freedom has its limit. And ED form of limitation is politic topic which is normal for every place has their up and down.

-Elena

 

Okay, I am done here, thank you, and may you have your life in the best way possible, and again, as usual, I have no pun intended :v :v :v :v :v (and let me put my pacman emotes plz :v )

[Johnc99]

I'll be honest from the start, I haven't read any of the comments. Not trying to be rude but there was a lot and I just wanted to leave my personal opinion here.

I think if the admin doesn't mind the topics, they should have a separate forum just like you have one for gaming and such or use ecchitext to talk privately.
If the admin doesn't want the topic on his/her or their roleplay site because of whatever reason, they have the right to do what they warned about in their rules as long as it's written in the agreement you "read" and agreed to before joining. 

In my opinion I don't really mind having political debates/discussions here, but I do understand that not everyone can keep their emotions in control. If everyone can have a civil debate/discussion, than I'd be up for having a forum to browse and comment on. But that is hard for most people, so putting my own want aside, I think that ecchitext should be allowed to speak over any topic as long as it's not bullying but the publication of your political views in a status or post can generate some unwanted and unforeseen problems and more people might end up getting banned on a platform they came to have  their fantasy fun with others who'd like to do the same.

[Novaer]

Thank you, everyone who took part in this. I'd say the community's wishes on this subject matter is clear as the difference between night and day. As I stated here:

On 08/02/2021 at 11:18, Novaer said:

I should also add that this isn't a referendum, where we will take the votes that people vote for and do that thing. We absolutely might not. It's an attempt to shine a light onto this issue, to start a conversation about it and let everyone to see what people think. We may not change the policy at all for reasons that have been put out already.

There won't be any policy changes today, or in the foreseeable future, but I will be keeping this in mind, going forwards.